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Northern strike action suspended

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muz379

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Yes the would.

It's a change to my working conditions, with increased productivity. There would be uproar if they did try to impose it without a vote as it contravenes DRI which would require amendment which was voted on last time.

It's not in my contract, or job description to open doors on any unit except ad-hoc ECS moves.
There might be uproar but that does not mean there is an obligation to have a vote , in the past 12/18 months ive seen several things agreed for drivers with some mess room moaning but no changes to full time officer , or company council reps . I honestly remain to see what could be done if the council + Full time officer agreed to driver release without a vote . Honestly not very much once its agreed its agreed .


And before you thinking I am being anti ASLEF . The exact same could happen on the guards side .
 
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ComUtoR

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20 years ago maybe. Now a 4 day week has been converted into a 5 day week. Same hours but split over 5 days.
Job and finish has gone. Rounds that finish early are expected to go and assist other rounds that are struggling. And just to cap it all, pay has been cut by£2000pa to bring them DOWN to equal pay with dinnerladies.

They could, of course, exercise their right to strike.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/all-about/birmingham-bin-strike
Birmingham City Council has embarked on a major overhaul of the bins service in a bid to save money and increase efficiency. Members of the Unite union voted overwhelmingly to take strike action starting on June 30, 2017 over the downgrading of 113 jobs and potential loss of pay. Collections across the city have been severely disrupted with bags and wheelie bins left uncollected for weeks on end.
 

baz962

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20 years ago maybe. Now a 4 day week has been converted into a 5 day week. Same hours but split over 5 days.
Job and finish has gone. Rounds that finish early are expected to go and assist other rounds that are struggling. And just to cap it all, pay has been cut by£2000pa to bring them DOWN to equal pay with dinnerladies.

So far as traincrew are concerned, has the "unofficial" roster now gone where job swaps could get you away early? When I worked on railway (more than 20 years ago) job swapping and unofficial covering was so rife you had a job to remember who was where!

No unofficial covering that I know of , I value my job too much. Me personally I ask to work , I'm not on a job tomorrow as I'm spare . I phoned the manager around one pm to ask if there was any time or job they needed covering. I didn't have to , as they cannot move me once there is less than 48 hour's before my shift.
 

Eccles1983

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There might be uproar but that does not mean there is an obligation to have a vote , in the past 12/18 months ive seen several things agreed for drivers with some mess room moaning but no changes to full time officer , or company council reps . I honestly remain to see what could be done if the council + Full time officer agreed to driver release without a vote . Honestly not very much once its agreed its agreed .


And before you thinking I am being anti ASLEF . The exact same could happen on the guards side .


Have you any evidence or precedent for a change as such being done without a vote?

As I understand it it would require DRI and job discriptions to be changed. And DRI was voted on as a productivity package.
 

Meerkat

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Residents of Merseyside. You know, the people who pay for Merseytravel

Don’t the DfT pay for Merseyrail?


Hmmm, to be fair just because you don’t see a justification doesn’t mean there isn’t one. The sudden risk of having to be extra cautious against releasing doors on the wrong side after hours of monotonous work where before that risk didn’t exist? The same can be said for stopping short after a quick spell of fatigue (we’ve all had that scary thought driving our cars thinking how did I get through that roundabout I don’t remember it at all).

If drivers are too tired to open the right doors how are they not too tired to drive? Humans are needed for safety according to the unions but you are saying humans aren’t safe?
 

Tomnick

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If drivers are too tired to open the right doors how are they not too tired to drive? Humans are needed for safety according to the unions but you are saying humans aren’t safe?
Who said they were tired? Humans aren't infallible though. If you've stopped at twenty stations where the platform's on the left, going through the same process at each, then human nature makes it inevitable that there's an increased risk of opening the doors on the wrong side at the twenty-first station, where the platform's on the right. Throw in other factors, such as the 'car stop' markers being on the left (the driver's focus therefore being on that side of the train at the crucial moment) and the risk increases further. It's still a small risk, but with hundreds of drivers each making hundreds of station stops each week, it adds up. Humans are needed for safety, but they need to be supported by safety systems to reduce that risk, and similar risks.
 

Val3ntine

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If drivers are too tired to open the right doors how are they not too tired to drive? Humans are needed for safety according to the unions but you are saying humans aren’t safe?


You’re actually hilarious. So get rid of police officers because they stopped and searched the wrong person, or even arrested them because of misidentification?
Person behind the till gave you the wrong change get rid of all workers behind tills.

Anyway there’s clearly no point reasoning or trying to explain things to views like yours on here honestly. Okay so you’re right, railway staff (especially drivers) are overpaid and they do little to no work to deserve such pay, plennnttyyyy of other jobs and industries even more so if I may add.
Oh well you and others complaining about it on a forum isn’t going to change things it is what it is. Short of getting a shotgun and assassinating them all I really don’t see the point of this reoccuring subject which must make an appearance at least once every few months.
 

Meerkat

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I think the more concerning aspect is that it is a risk, but fine if the drivers get a pay rise.
I don’t believe in “deserving pay”. That’s a value judgment that is unworkable.
You should get paid what it costs to have enough competent people do the job (and to keep the good ones). If there is a queue of competent people wanting to do that job then starting wages are too high.
The RMT way seems to be that the group of people who can cause the most disruption get paid the most, which doesn’t seem very fair and likely to lead to rampant inflation.

PS I don’t believe drivers don’t do any work, they have a lot of responsibility and they have to work shifts.....but I don’t think working the doors is really asking a lot - it’s far less risky than what they could do wrong on the move!

PPS i always appreciate hearing the other end of the argument - i am probably too old to change my principles on unions but my views on the actual nitty gritty do change.
 

Tomnick

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I think the more concerning aspect is that it is a risk, but fine if the drivers get a pay rise.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more pay if you're taking on more responsibility (and workload) and more risk of putting yourself in prison, as small as that risk might be.

...but I don’t think working the doors is really asking a lot - it’s far less risky than what they could do wrong on the move!
Believe me, that half minute or so at each station stop is a welcome respite from that intense concentration trying not to do something wrong on the move for the rest of a three hour journey. Taking away that opportunity, and adding to the driver's workload during the dispatch process, makes it far more likely that something will go wrong on the move.
 

ComUtoR

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.....but I don’t think working the doors is really asking a lot - it’s far less risky than what they could do wrong on the move!

Currently the greatest risk to the passenger and the greatest risk overall is at the Platform Train Interface (PTI) I think your perception of what the risks are are very wide of the mark.

On the move you are protected by various safety systems and even when an incident does occur there is a lot of mitigation so the actual consequences are very low. At the platform edge there is little protection and the protections that do exist are proving to be unreliable and have themselves caused incident and direct harm to the passenger.
 

Meerkat

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I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more pay if you're taking on more responsibility (and workload) and more risk of putting yourself in prison, as small as that risk might be.

But you understand how that sounds when the union are shouting about TOCs putting money before safety?

Believe me, that half minute or so at each station stop is a welcome respite from that intense concentration trying not to do something wrong on the move for the rest of a three hour journey.

Fair point for the safety experts to consider (but isn’t a change of job cycle also good for concentration?)

At the platform edge there is little protection and the protections that do exist are proving to be unreliable and have themselves caused incident and direct harm to the passenger.

But how much extra safety does the guard give over a full DOO system - the safety experts say DOO is safe and its use is widespread here and abroad?
 

Killingworth

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The more of this I read the more admiration I have for the average bus driver navigating through heavy traffic, manoeuvring into congested and often obstructed bus stops come rain, snow, blinding low sun, and dealing with all sorts of passengers be they young, old, intelligent, ignorant, disabled, deaf, blind, with push chairs, luggage, shopping, and on many routes often drunk and belligerent. No second person and often limited access to comfort facilities.

I understand the average bus driver will receive significantly less remuneration than the driver of a train, possibly half as much. Ah well, just saying, but different unions.
 

Val3ntine

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The more of this I read the more admiration I have for the average bus driver navigating through heavy traffic, manoeuvring into congested and often obstructed bus stops come rain, snow, blinding low sun, and dealing with all sorts of passengers be they young, old, intelligent, ignorant, disabled, deaf, blind, with push chairs, luggage, shopping, and on many routes often drunk and belligerent. No second person and often limited access to comfort facilities.

I understand the average bus driver will receive significantly less remuneration than the driver of a train, possibly half as much. Ah well, just saying, but different unions.

Aha! The old bus driver vs train driver pops it’s beautiful head up again.
I agree!! Pay bus drivers 60k for all those lists of stuff you mentioned. Oh no wait I’m guessing you mean lower train driver’s salary to match that of a bus driver’s wage? Silly me.
Can’t believe you forgot nurses and junior doctors tut tut so predictable to use the old bus drivers everyone’s expecting that man, totally slacking.
Okay here’s one for you maybe newly qualified first officers for a budget airline that’s a good one to get the blood of some on here flowing! There I’ve given you a great boost ;)
 

Killingworth

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Aha! The old bus driver vs train driver pops it’s beautiful head up again.
I agree!! Pay bus drivers 60k for all those lists of stuff you mentioned. Oh no wait I’m guessing you mean lower train driver’s salary to match that of a bus driver’s wage? Silly me.
Can’t believe you forgot nurses and junior doctors tut tut so predictable to use the old bus drivers everyone’s expecting that man, totally slacking.
Okay here’s one for you maybe newly qualified first officers for a budget airline that’s a good one to get the blood of some on here flowing! There I’ve given you a great boost ;)

Exactly the point I was making. There is no equality of pay, working conditions, or agreed relative importance between them. I'd contend footballers are grossly overpaid for doing a job most would consider relatively unmportant and not a few might even pay to do. Market forces say my contention may well be right, but enough football clubs say I'm wrong and they've thus created that situation.

In another thread some have been bemoaning the closure of branch banks. In service industries as well as manufacturing much work has been removed from the UK to countries around the globe.

Things like trains and buses are harder to control remotely. Maybe one day we'll become used to seeing driverless cars on the roads, and if we can control drones in Syria from a control centre in Lincolnshire why can't we control trains remotely too, maybe from a control centre in York ? Ah, I hear people say, we can, in London Docklands.

A lot of jobs can be done remotely. There are many that can't, but one day might be.
 

DarloRich

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Well, I didn't word that too succinctly.

What I meant was Northern haven't obviously changed their position, there is, and until the end of the franchise always was going to be a second member of staff on every train.

All jobs were guaranteed, with no cuts in pay.

And yet they've lost a great deal of money and got Northern to change absolutely jack.

I am not sure you are quiet correct it that assertion. As I am sure you know having 2 people on the train is not the issue. Having 2 safety trained people is.

That is the detail required in this discussion which I think is being missed.

It is also interesting to see what the situation with new starters is.

That is why we need more detail.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Well, Metrolink is hived off from having to serve some longish rural routes, which might have something to do with its miraculous subsidy free status.

The Manchester Metrolink system is at present confined to the TfGM Greater Manchester area with all lines serving town areas such as Wythenshawe/Manchester Airport, East Didsbury, Altrincham, Oldham, Rochdale, Eccles and Ashton-under-Lyne, from the Manchester city centre core and the line under construction at present that will eventually serve that noted House of Mammon known as the intu Trafford Centre.
 

Tomnick

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But you understand how that sounds when the union are shouting about TOCs putting money before safety?
Sort of - but of course safety is relative, and I acknowledge that sometimes a higher risk is acceptable if it’s outweighed by the benefits. The union might initially oppose something on safety grounds and subsequently agree it after negotiation and suitable mitigation - but insist on more pay for any increased responsibility and workload. That doesn’t seem unreasonable. I know that it doesn’t always come across like that though, and the unions’ PR machines often don’t help.

The more of this I read the more admiration I have for the average bus driver navigating through heavy traffic, manoeuvring into congested and often obstructed bus stops come rain, snow, blinding low sun, and dealing with all sorts of passengers be they young, old, intelligent, ignorant, disabled, deaf, blind, with push chairs, luggage, shopping, and on many routes often drunk and belligerent. No second person and often limited access to comfort facilities.

I understand the average bus driver will receive significantly less remuneration than the driver of a train, possibly half as much. Ah well, just saying, but different unions.
A very simplistic view indeed. Yes, a train driver probably has less to worry about at any given moment, when it’s all going well at least. I don’t know why dealing with rain, snow, blinding low sun and limited access to comfort facilities are unique to bus drivers though!

More significantly, though, your bus driver only really has to deal with what’s in view. Your train driver has to be thinking two or three miles ahead, reacting to things that aren’t yet in view, and also remembering and acting upon the information displayed by the previous signal, sometimes with a station stop intervening with all the usual distractions present.

Negotiating a busy city centre with a large vehicle is indeeed a skilful task. So is negotiating the approach to Manchester Piccadilly (to pick an example that you’re probably familiar with) on restrictive aspects in darkness and/or in poor visibility, trying to pick out your next signal from a vast sea of signals that each keep coming into and out of view around the many obstructions. The relevant difference is that anyone with the relevant licence can take a bus into Manchester city centre, even if they’ve never been within a hundred miles of the place previously. That, and the far more extensive rules and traction training required, is largely what has made train drivers’ pay what it is since privatisation. Market forces, not union action.
 

Andrew Nelson

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I am not sure you are quiet correct it that assertion. As I am sure you know having 2 people on the train is not the issue. Having 2 safety trained people is.

That is the detail required in this discussion which I think is being missed.

It is also interesting to see what the situation with new starters is.

That is why we need more detail.

The Union's main "Selling point" was that the Guard was there to help and reassure passengers.

Many people have pointed out that many Guards don't bother going more than a few feet from the rear cab to open the doors.

HOWEVER....

The whole point on the new operating practice WOULD be there to "help and reassure passengers".
 

DarloRich

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The Union's main "Selling point" was that the Guard was there to help and reassure passengers.

Many people have pointed out that many Guards don't bother going more than a few feet from the rear cab to open the doors.

HOWEVER....

The whole point on the new operating practice WOULD be there to "help and reassure passengers".

I do not agree. The "main selling" of a guard point was and is safety. Perhaps you are willfully misrepresenting this position for your own ends.
 

ainsworth74

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Many people have pointed out that many Guards don't bother going more than a few feet from the rear cab to open the doors.

Rubbish! My experience is that the vast majority of guards are present in the saloon of their trains checking and selling tickets and thereby being available to passengers. Even on suburban SWR services (where the guard has no revenue duties) the majority of the time whilst they may not leave the cab they will proactively announce where they are in case anyone needs them.
 

Andrew Nelson

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It’s a strange strange industry where employees have so much ability to prevent improvements to their industry.
And people wonder why it is a struggle to get investment.

It's odd to think that such things are very left wing, and yet utterly Conservative at the same time.
 

Tomnick

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The Union's main "Selling point" was that the Guard was there to help and reassure passengers.

Many people have pointed out that many Guards don't bother going more than a few feet from the rear cab to open the doors.

HOWEVER....

The whole point on the new operating practice WOULD be there to "help and reassure passengers".
Isn’t it pretty obvious that the minority who currently stay in/around the back cab will continue to stay in the back cab under “the new operating practice”? They’re not doing their jobs properly now and no-one’s stopping them, so why would that change?
 

Andrew Nelson

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I do not agree. The "main selling" of a guard point was and is safety. Perhaps you are willfully misrepresenting this position for your own ends.
Really?

Rubbish! My experience is that the vast majority of guards are present in the saloon of their trains checking and selling tickets and thereby being available to passengers. Even on suburban SWR services (where the guard has no revenue duties) the majority of the time whilst they may not leave the cab they will proactively announce where they are in case anyone needs them.

Maybe you should get to the actual TOC we are talking about, Northern.

Isn’t it pretty obvious that the minority who currently stay in/around the back cab will continue to stay in the back cab under “the new operating practice”? They’re not doing their jobs properly now and no-one’s stopping them, so why would that change?

By removing the excuse that "They need to do the doors".
 

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DarloRich

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I am sorry but i don't see your point - I think you are misunderstanding the role of the guard which is, absolutely, to keep the train safe. You see this as patrolling the train. That is a part of their role. However, it is subservient to the safe operation and protection of the train which is their primary duty.

It is clear from your postings that you despise guards but underlying all of this is a complete misunderstanding of their role. I ask, again, if that misunderstanding is willful.
 

driver_m

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Don’t the DfT pay for Merseyrail?




If drivers are too tired to open the right doors how are they not too tired to drive? Humans are needed for safety according to the unions but you are saying humans aren’t safe?


My council tax includes a portion paid to Merseytravel to run the Merseyrail concession. It's different to most TOCs in how it is awarded. It also pays for the Mersey Tunnels and Ferries and such . The DfT do provide money, but its Merseytravel who oversee the franchise.


Now, how's about you answer my question. You never answred it..it. How does an OBS help a driver to check a train with brake trouble when they can't go on the track?
 

DarloRich

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It’s a strange strange industry where employees have so much ability to prevent improvements to their industry.
And people wonder why it is a struggle to get investment.

this is a frankly bizzare and incorrect posting.

Again, you're begging the question.

In what way is removing safety-trained staff from trains "progress"?

Because it gives the awful unions and their despicable members a jolly good thrashing and means that in future all staff kowtow when instructed to do so.

It's odd to think that such things are very left wing, and yet utterly Conservative at the same time.

conservative rather than Conservative. Two very different things.

Now, how's about you answer my question. You never answred it..it. How does an OBS help a driver to check a train with brake trouble when they can't go on the track?

They cant provide an answer because it doesn't fit the narrative or they haven't take the time to understand what the role actually is.
 

Tomnick

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By removing the excuse that "They need to do the doors".
It’s not a valid excuse, especially if there are intermediate door controls. Others manage perfectly well - the minority are getting away with it now, and would continue to do so under any new proposal. It’s certainly no justification for doing away with the grade.
 

driver_m

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I'll open that question to everyone on here. How does an OBS help me to check a train with brake problems when they can't go on the track?

And another one for those regarding opening the doors.. I do it, and take it from me, yes it is pressing two buttons, but if you make one simple mistake, you could potentially kill/harm passenger/s. You can't press ctrl-alt-del to make it right and the train will actively drop you in it as it knows the wrong ones have been opened thanks to the on board monitoring systems. You have to get it right every single time and I take great pride in doing a simple task right, but one with enormous implications if I do it wrong. However, I'd sooner do it, in case I ever stopped short and then it's out of my hands because the guard could open it with the train in the wrong place. End of the day, it is a change in T&C's and regardless of who you work for, a good employer will talk with their staff over it, a bad one imposes it .
 
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