Westward Ho!

[Masboroughlad]

Having a break in North Devon.....

Did Westward Ho! ever have a rail link? If so, where to and when did it close?

The resort seems to be on the up, with a lot of new development. Any chance of a railway to bring in the crowds?

 

[Highlandspring]

Yes, opened by the Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore Railway and closed in 1917.

 

[Cowley]

Having a break in North Devon.....

Did Westward Ho! ever have a rail link? If so, where to and when did it close?

The resort seems to be on the up, with a lot of new development. Any chance of a railway to bring in the crowds?

It did indeed have a railway.
The rather fascinating Bideford and Westward Ho! Railway.
Opened bit by bit between 1901 and 1908, it was shut down by 1917 and stripped for the war effort. Possibly the shortest lived 'proper' railway in the country?
There are traces of it left (I've walked bits of it).
The carriage shed at Bideford is still in existence along with various other things.
Not bad considering it closed over a hundred years ago.

 

[jimm]

There is information about the railway and some photos on this village history website

http://www.westwardhohistory.co.uk/the-railway/

and a pretty chunky Wikipedia page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bideford,_Westward_Ho!_and_Appledore_Railway

plus a thread dating froth centenary of the closure last year

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ideford-westward-ho-appledore-railway.144440/

 

[Taunton]

On closure during WW1 the locomotives were requisitioned by the government and sent to the war in France, but the freighter was torpedoed on the way and so they still exist, presumably to an extent, at the bottom of the English Channel. The alignment of the railway can still be quite well traced.

It's principal item of railwayana, West Country 4-6-2 34036 "Westward Ho!", still exists of course. Unfortunately it was one of the locos chosen for rebuilding in the 1950s, so could no longer reach Bideford near to its namesake, as only Unrebuilt locos were allowed west of Exeter.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52g_sunderland/15366287378

Westward Ho! still has an atmosphere of "almost made it but not quite" about the place, and always feels a bit windswept for a resort. The best description of the place is in Rudyard Kipling's novel "Stalky & Co", about time (shortly before the railway was built) at a boarding school in the town. It was Kipling's own school and the characters are all based on his contemporaries. It's very amusing. The town gasworks, which was the railway's main source of freight traffic, makes several appearences in the book.

 

[DavidGrain]

The only railway station with an ! in its name. I saw a National Express coach in Victoria with Westward Ho! on its destination board

Am I right in thinking that the Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore Railway was a Colonel Stevens railway?

Edited for typos and to make a little more sense

 

[pdeaves]

It did indeed have a railway.
The rather fascinating Bideford and Westward Ho! Railway.
Opened bit by bit between 1901 and 1908, it was shut down by 1917 and stripped for the war effort. Possibly the shortest lived 'proper' railway in the country?

The railway had no connection to any other system. Temporary track had to be laid through the streets to remove a locomotive!

 

[Calthrop]

On closure during WW1 the locomotives were requisitioned by the government and sent to the war in France, but the freighter was torpedoed on the way and so they still exist, presumably to an extent, at the bottom of the English Channel.

To be annoyingly nitpicking: as treated of in the 2017 thread mentioned above, the location of the sinking concerned -- with two very recognisable tank locomotives as cargo on the ship -- has been pretty well determined: before the English Channel was reached; at a point along the coast between Clovelly and Padstow. This coastal stretch has long been a notorious "ships' graveyard", and was a happy hunting-ground for German submarines in World War I.

The only railway station with an ! in its name. Isaw a National Express coach in Victoria with Westward Ho! in its name.

I've travelled by the National Express coach route -- although for only part of its run -- from Grimsby to Westward Ho ! An itinerary to conjure with !

Am I right in thinking that the Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore Railway was a Colonel Stevens railway?

No -- it was one which the Colonel never had anything to do with. My impression of the BWH!&AR, is that during its short life, it was a smarter concern, with newer and better-maintained equipment, than the famously rather ramshackle Stephens outfits.

It did indeed have a railway.
The rather fascinating Bideford and Westward Ho! Railway.
Opened bit by bit between 1901 and 1908, it was shut down by 1917 and stripped for the war effort. Possibly the shortest lived 'proper' railway in the country?
There are traces of it left (I've walked bits of it).
The carriage shed at Bideford is still in existence along with various other things.
Not bad considering it closed over a hundred years ago.

My bolding -- damn that wretched Great War ! (Though I understand that the BWH!&AR, when operational, signally failed to make money: had WWI not happened, or had the railway not succumbed during the war; I have difficulty seeing it surviving for a very long time past 1917.)

 

[Taunton]

Bideford, a bit like some other places such as Looe or Londonderry, is in two parts divided by significant estuary, connected by a single road bridge, and with the railway station on the less-significant bank. The Westward Ho! line started on the opposite shore from the LSWR station, but when competing buses began they of course just went across to the LSWR station, as well as running up the main street of everywhere along the way. What passengers the railway once had found this far more convenient. I think even in the 1960s Southern National buses were running every 10 minutes or so along the parallel road. They also went right through to Barnstaple, so instead of two trains, a bleak mid-journey walk, and hanging round for the next infrequent train, it was no contest.

 

[Calthrop]

It did indeed have a railway.
The rather fascinating Bideford and Westward Ho! Railway.
Opened bit by bit between 1901 and 1908, it was shut down by 1917 and stripped for the war effort. Possibly the shortest lived 'proper' railway in the country?

I must be at a loose end -- but, would you count as "proper", the Plynlimon & Hafan? 2ft. 3in. gauge -- would have thus made an attractive "third" with the Talyllyn and the Corris, if it had only lasted. Genuinely ran in public passenger and freight service, though for an ephemerally brief period -- essentially freight two years, passenger one-and-a-half: late 1897 to late 1899. Makes the BWH!&A look, as at closure, positively middle-aged in comparison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plynlimon_and_Hafan_Tramway

 

[HaggisBotherer]

It's principal item of railwayana, West Country 4-6-2 34036 "Westward Ho!", still exists of course.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/52g_sunderland/15366287378

I'm sorry to disappoint, but no it doesn't. As noted in the Flickr comments and documented elsewhere, that photo is of Taw Valley running with the name and number of a scrapped classmate.

 

[Calthrop]

At loose end indeed (or confirming the wise advice "don't drink and post"), I'm aware of at least one other passenger rail facility with an exclamation-mark in its name: on the former Denver & Rio Grande 3ft gauge, now steam-and-heritage-tourist, line from Durango to Silverton in Colorado: there at any rate has been -- don't know whether it's functional nowadays -- a halt called "Ah Wilderness !".

 

[Cowley]

At loose end indeed (or confirming the wise advice "don't drink and post"), I'm aware of at least one other passenger rail facility with an exclamation-mark in its name: on the former Denver & Rio Grande 3ft gauge, now steam-and-heritage-tourist, line from Durango to Silverton in Colorado: there at any rate has been -- don't know whether it's functional nowadays -- a halt called "Ah Wilderness !".

Brilliant (!)

 

[Cowley]

I must be at a loose end -- but, would you count as "proper", the Plynlimon & Hafan? 2ft. 3in. gauge -- would have thus made an attractive "third" with the Talyllyn and the Corris, if it had only lasted. Genuinely ran in public passenger and freight service, though for an ephemerally brief period -- essentially freight two years, passenger one-and-a-half: late 1897 to late 1899. Makes the BWH!&A look, as at closure, positively middle-aged in comparison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plynlimon_and_Hafan_Tramway

I'll have a look at this later. Looks interesting.

 

[rogerfarnworth]

An independent standard-gauge line with no direct connection into the wider network. ....... The first section of the line was completed in 1901, the full line finished in 1908. All of the track and rolling stock were requisitioned during the war and the railway closed in 1917. The materials never saw active service! ........

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/06/04/bideford-westward-ho-and-appledore-railway-part-1-railfile

 

[Cowley]

A fascinating railway, I believe Calthrop of this parish is quite knowledgeable about it and may be along to read your link at some point.
That’s a very good article about the railway.

 

[rogerfarnworth]

I have started a look at the length of the line from Bideford to Westward Ho!So hopefully will be posting that in a week to 10 days, if time permits.

 

[Calthrop]

@rogerfarnworth and Cowley -- thanks. There have been threads on the BWH!&AR in "Railway History and Nostalgia", commencing in March 2017 and Feb. 2019 -- but it's a line about which I for one, can never hear enough !

As is one's sentiment so often, for so many reasons from the very tragic to the trivial -- damn that wretched First World War ! I feel that what the BWH!&A needed, and lacked, was a loving and wealthy owner, a la Henry Haydn Jones on the Talyllyn*; who would have bribed the Ministry of Munitions to spare his railway and find some other victim -- and kept the line afloat in the succeeding years, with increasing road competition. In fact the BWH!&A proved a money-loser and something of a white elephant -- in truth, probably inaugurated too late to make much sense in the coming road-transport era -- its "ultimate" owners the British Electric Traction Company were, I understand, glad to be shot of it owing to 1917's events. As things were -- even had it survived WWI, or that war had not been; it's hard to see it lasting for very many more years.

(*I take it that the Talyllyn itself was under no threat in WWI -- seen, indeed, as doing a vital job hauling out slate for the repair of city roofs damaged in German bombing raids !)

 

[rogerfarnworth]

I hope that a review of the length of the line will contribute to previous offerings on the line. I should have searched first before starting a new thread. I'll have a look at those threads as soon as I can.

 

[rogerfarnworth]

Just looked at this thread and the preceding one from 2017. Apologies for introducing a thread with the same name. If it is thought best by moderators, please move my thread into this one. Once again, my apologies.

 

[70014IronDuke]

@rogerfarnworth and Cowley -- thanks. There have been threads on the BWH!&AR in "Railway History and Nostalgia", commencing in March 2017 and Feb. 2019 -- but it's a line about which I for one, can never hear enough !

...
(*I take it that the Talyllyn itself was under no threat in WWI -- seen, indeed, as doing a vital job hauling out slate for the repair of city roofs damaged in German bombing raids !)

German bombing raids in WW1?

I should think the slate needed to repair the damage would have occupied the Talyllyn for all of two shifts.

I'm not sure if there were any offensive actions across the channel by aeroplanes in WWI.

There were some raids by Zeppelins, which produced terror for those below on the ground (from what I've read) but the damage from munitions was pretty minimal. There were civilian casualties, of course.

Air power was still very crude. The Zeppelin raids were only vaguely successful because British fighters did not have the firepower to attack them effectively from below (the Zeppelin's own guns kept them back) and did not have the engine power to climb and attack from above. At least to about 1917, I think.

 

[Calthrop]

Thanks -- my interest in World War I, exceeds my detailed knowledge of it ! I have the impression that an immense to-do was made about the Zeppelins at the time; but per your indications, it was more that they were scary -- partly because unprecedented -- than able to wreak huge amounts of harm. I seem to recall having read of some German bombing by aeroplane, of targets in south-east England, in the later stages of the war; but may have imagined that. We did them some fairly serious aeroplane-born bombing damage late-ish in the war, did we not?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thanks -- my interest in World War I, exceeds my detailed knowledge of it ! I have the impression that an immense to-do was made about the Zeppelins at the time; but per your indications, it was more that they were scary -- partly because unprecedented -- than able to wreak huge amounts of harm. I seem to recall having read of some German bombing by aeroplane, of targets in south-east England, in the later stages of the war; but may have imagined that. We did them some fairly serious aeroplane-born bombing damage late-ish in the war, did we not?

OT - but the Prussians preferred to attack coastal resorts by firing at them from cruisers - largely in the North East and a source of great national shame. The fledgling RAF got going in - and for amusement read about WW1 Wlesh flying ace , Ira Jones of Carmarthen.

Anyway - the Talyllyn nearly closed around 1910 when the original owners shut the quarry and Sir Henry Haydn Jones stepped in , bought it and kept the railway going (weekly loss around £5) to his death.

 

[341o2]

The railway had no connection to any other system. Temporary track had to be laid through the streets to remove a locomotive!

That happened after closure. The BWH&A was discussed recently on a thread here regarding standard gauge lines which were isolated from the mainline network

 

[Calthrop]

OT - but the Prussians preferred to attack coastal resorts by firing at them from cruisers - largely in the North East and a source of great national shame.

Facetious "side take" on a serious -- and indeed nasty -- subject: re the recent thread in "General Discussion", What do you think of Great Yarmouth? ; the answer as regards the World War I Germans would seem to be, "not much" -- they shot it up, or tried to, more than once.

 

[Lucan]

OT - but the Prussians preferred to attack coastal resorts by firing at them from cruisers - largely in the North East and a source of great national shame.

Being pedantic, the German ships in those raids were battlecruisers, not cruisers - a big difference as battlecruisers were effectively fast battleships and typically even larger. Their crews (on both sides) regarded their ships as the cream of the fleet and they bore the brunt of the naval battles in WW1. There were smaller cruisers escorting them in those raids however.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Being pedantic, the German ships in those raids were battlecruisers, not cruisers - a big difference as battlecruisers were effectively fast battleships and typically even larger. Their crews (on both sides) regarded their ships as the cream of the fleet and they bore the brunt of the naval battles in WW1. There were smaller cruisers escorting them in those raids however.

Whatever - they were still the enemy and cowards of the very highest order to attack non combatants in such a manner.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thanks -- my interest in World War I, exceeds my detailed knowledge of it ! I have the impression that an immense to-do was made about the Zeppelins at the time; but per your indications, it was more that they were scary -- partly because unprecedented -- than able to wreak huge amounts of harm. I seem to recall having read of some German bombing by aeroplane, of targets in south-east England, in the later stages of the war; but may have imagined that. We did them some fairly serious aeroplane-born bombing damage late-ish in the war, did we not?

OT (Alarmingly!)

I don't think the fledgling air force bombed Germany itself, BICBW. AFAIK, it was all (attempted) tactical stuff on enemy lines, maybe airfields, command centres and the like behind lines. I think the "big" Handley Page bombers may have seen a few weeks of service, but not much before 11/11/18. And the big German ones (Gothas ?) similar.

The huge public fear of bombing came with the publication of a theoretical book by some Italian general. And then the attack on undefended Guernica during the Spanish Civil War seemed to confirm the hugely incorrect theory that 'the bomber will always get through'.

Well, as far as thread drift is concerned, this must be up among the best

 

[Calthrop]

Trying for a little bit of steering once more, in a railway-oriented direction -- a verse from the sad little poem, in County Tyrone dialect, on the occasion of the abandonment of the 3ft gauge Clogher Valley Railway at the end of 1941:

"Here's hopin' the RAF soon will begin
Tae use up our railway, this war for to win,
An' dhrap Clogher station all over Berlin --
Ahmdambut, boys, it's tarrah."

 

[2138Stafford]

According to the IRS 'Industrial Locomotives of Dyfed & Powys' book 713 'Grenville' and 715 'Torridge' were requisitioned for use at the Ministry of Munitions, Pembrey, Carmarthenshire in August 1917. Hunslet supplied spares under an order dated 8/8/1919 for 713.

Hunslet also supplied spares under an order dated 9/8/1918 for 714 'Kingsley' at Ministry of Munitions, Avonmouth.

In addition 713 'Grenville' was seen at Oxford GWR on 23/5/1920 en route to another unknown location.

Information on other forums state that it has not been possible to trace a captured German cargo ship named Gotterdammerung which it is alleged was torpedoed carrying 2 of the BWH&A locomotives.