Recent DRS new loco tender result for new Class 93 locos

[gingertom]

Handy for what, though?

MML or XC for a start.

 

[CosherB]

MML or XC for a start.

Why is there a number of people that think LHCS is going to make a comeback, when the evidence shows the complete opposite? And before some smart alec quotes TPE Mk5s at the, the only reason they were procured was reduced delivery timescales, and look where that has ended up!

MML will eventually get a fleet of bimodes to replace the Meridians and derogated-HSTs while XC will be lucky to get anything at all in the short to medium term, apart from some more HSTs.

 

[Photohunter71]

Well, from what was proposed, it looks like R.O.G will be using the 93's for freight and passenger use and R.O.G is looking at setting up subsidiary railfreight and passenger companies due to reserved TOPS number to 93 050. I look forward to further news on this. Not too much longer until DRS unveil their new Diesel fleet plans!

 

[Class455]

Well, from what was proposed, it looks like R.O.G will be using the 93's for freight and passenger use and R.O.G is looking at setting up subsidiary railfreight and passenger companies due to reserved TOPS number to 93 050. I look forward to further news on this. Not too much longer until DRS unveil their new Diesel fleet plans!

When I first saw ROG were getting these, I would have thought that these would be used to replace its existing fleet to haul multiple units, will they be used for this purpose at all?

 

[Photohunter71]

I suspect they will. It will be interesting to see just how this unfolds.

 

[ABB125]

Flicking through the latest copy of RAIL today I saw that Karl Watts (?) of ROG has said that class 93s feature in two franchise bids. The only franchise I can think of that may be suitable is East Midlands. (I would also suggest CrossCountry but that franchise competition has now been cancelled.) Does anyone have any idea who else might be interested?

 

[gazthomas]

While I like a buoyant market, and I wish them every success I hope ROG don't over stretch themselves and become another FM or Cotswold Rail.

 

[xotGD]

Flicking through the latest copy of RAIL today I saw that Karl Watts (?) of ROG has said that class 93s feature in two franchise bids. The only franchise I can think of that may be suitable is East Midlands. (I would also suggest CrossCountry but that franchise competition has now been cancelled.) Does anyone have any idea who else might be interested?

Could be two separate bidders for the same franchise.

 

[Photohunter71]

Would be good to have them up here in Edinburgh. Maybe one day!

 

[InTheEastMids]

Flicking through the latest copy of RAIL today I saw that Karl Watts (?) of ROG has said that class 93s feature in two franchise bids. The only franchise I can think of that may be suitable is East Midlands. (I would also suggest CrossCountry but that franchise competition has now been cancelled.) Does anyone have any idea who else might be interested?

Which route in the East Mids? For the inter city services isn't the requirement to match a 222 on diesel?
I think that means (very) roughly double heading/top and tail 3000hp on diesel, with presumably fewer powered axles.

Are there any other parts of the next East Mids franchise with enough electric running to make a bimode locomotive worthwhile?

 

[59CosG95]

Which route in the East Mids? For the inter city services isn't the requirement to match a 222 on diesel?
I think that means (very) roughly double heading/top and tail 3000hp on diesel, with presumably fewer powered axles.

Are there any other parts of the next East Mids franchise with enough electric running to make a bimode locomotive worthwhile?

Well, St. Pancras to Kettering/Corby (and perhaps Market Harborough) is one stretch; the stretch due to be upgraded as part of HS2 Phase 2 through Chesterfield & Sheffield is another.
The latter route would also be useful for CrossCountry services...

 

[gingertom]

Which route in the East Mids? For the inter city services isn't the requirement to match a 222 on diesel?
I think that means (very) roughly double heading/top and tail 3000hp on diesel, with presumably fewer powered axles.

Are there any other parts of the next East Mids franchise with enough electric running to make a bimode locomotive worthwhile?

I think the design 110mph top speed of this new loco kind of rules it out for use on the MML.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Well, St. Pancras to Kettering/Corby (and perhaps Market Harborough) is one stretch; the stretch due to be upgraded as part of HS2 Phase 2 through Chesterfield & Sheffield is another.
The latter route would also be useful for CrossCountry services...

I wasn't very clear at communicating what I was thinking. I'm very well aware of the MML electrification. My logic is this
1. To match a 9x222 on diesel, an 8-9 car train is going to need maybe >6000 hp on diesel
2. This suggests 2 locos of 3000hp on diesel presumably top and tail like an HST, and maybe >4000hp on electric.

Now, both 68 and 88 weigh ~85t so the 93 would probably be >90t... So, compared to an 80x
- with fewer powered axles would it struggle to match performance
- axle loadings might mean track access charges were much higher for >100mph running
- loss of passenger space by giving over 40-ish meters to the locos
- loss of flexibility compared to MUs, eg the Nottingham off peak fasts do not need a 2+8 HST,

 

[squizzler]

Flicking through the latest copy of RAIL today I saw that Karl Watts (?) of ROG has said that class 93s feature in two franchise bids.

As a bit of a wildcard, do you suppose Talgo might be in the running to build the passenger coaches? They have been looking to break into the UK market all ready for the HS2 tenders, and their passenger stock might have something to offer. It is very lightweight because it dispenses with the bogies and solid axles, so the performance penalty of going with hauled stock versus multiple unit ought to reduced.

What really prompted me to speculate is that DB have just selected the Talgo system for their next tranche of loco hauled intercity trains. Unlike many Talgo purchases this decision is on their merits as standard gauge stock, not for their gauge changing capability.

Key figures:

• Initial order for 23 trains – worth EUR 550 million
• Type Talgo 230, so max speed will be 230 km/h
• First deliveries scheduled for 2023
• Frame contract can cover up to 100 trains
• Each train will include one locomotive and one driving trailer

Deutsche Bahn has also announced the first routes on which the new rolling stock will be used:

• Berlin – Amsterdam
• Köln – Westerland (Sylt)
• Hamburg – Oberstdorf

 

[ABB125]

As a bit of a wildcard, do you suppose Talgo might be in the running to build the passenger coaches? They have been looking to break into the UK market all ready for the HS2 tenders, and their passenger stock might have something to offer. It is very lightweight because it dispenses with the bogies and solid axles, so the performance penalty of going with hauled stock versus multiple unit ought to reduced.

What really prompted me to speculate is that DB have just selected the Talgo system for their next tranche of loco hauled intercity trains. Unlike many Talgo purchases this decision is on their merits as standard gauge stock, not for their gauge changing capability.

Interesting idea, but again, who would be the likely operators? Like I said, a class 93 + coaches would fit (although not necessarily be ideal for) the CrossCountry franchise, which has now been cancelled.
Although it has just occurred to me that these may be of interest to the West Coast Partnership to reduce voyager under the wires miles, perhaps on the Chester and Holyhead route.

 

[Richard Scott]

Anyone any ideas which diesel engine is planned to be used?

 

[Suraggu]

Anyone any ideas which diesel engine is planned to be used?

V12 C175 it's believed.

 

[Photohunter71]

Just a bit of wishful thinking on my part, but It would be great to have them on a Glasgow Central - Newcastle via the South Suburban loop, although I know it means running through Millerhill yard to the south at wanton walls junction then onto the ECML. But it would be great for an Edinburgh- Carlisle or Edinburgh-Preston / Edinburgh - Liverpool run. Anyway, back to reality, it will be interesting to see where they are deployed.

 

[squizzler]

Interesting idea, but again, who would be the likely operators? Like I said, a class 93 + coaches would fit (although not necessarily be ideal for) the CrossCountry franchise, which has now been cancelled.
Although it has just occurred to me that these may be of interest to the West Coast Partnership to reduce voyager under the wires miles, perhaps on the Chester and Holyhead route.

The advantage of Talgo in the applications we have mentioned is that they have passive tilt so could perhaps be a bit quicker than regular stock on twisty WCML and MML routes. Again, this might, in addition to their crisp packet weight, help reduce the perceived disadvantages of hauled stock. They are of course not going to be as fast as the Pendolinos which have active tilt.

 

[ac6000cw]

V12 C175 it's believed.

The piece in 'Modern Railways' February edition (page 37) about the 93's suggests it will be 900kW diesel plus 400kW battery (or 4000kW on 25kV OHLE). The C175-12 is rather more powerful than 900kW (it's around 2000kW), so I'd expect a different, smaller Cat diesel engine.

Basically class 37 performance level on diesel+battery power, and class 88 level on 25kV overhead.

 

[43096]

The piece in 'Modern Railways' February edition (page 37) about the 93's suggests it will be 900kW diesel plus 400kW battery (or 4000kW on 25kV OHLE). The C175-12 is rather more powerful than 900kW (it's around 2000kW), so I'd expect a different, smaller Cat diesel engine.

From that it sounds like the same engine as the Class 88, but with added battery power.

I’m still not seeing what the potential passenger use for these away from the wires is - the rating is too low and the battery power too limited to be of much use. And that’s before you take into account the requirements for train supply.

 

[ac6000cw]

I’m still not seeing what the potential passenger use for these away from the wires is - the rating is too low and the battery power too limited to be of much use. And that’s before you take into account the requirements for train supply.

I agree - with most of the 'extensions beyond the wires' situations covered by the IET-derived fleets already (and other bi-mode MUs like the Flirts), there aren't many 'niches' left to fill (ones that would make any commercial/operating sense, anyway).

Euston - North Wales coast/Barrow/Windermere/Dumfries just possibly maybe (but that means pathing 100-110 mph stock on the WCML).

 

[angryskipfan]

For class 93 reading between the lines of the press statements, where a bigger cooler group and 0.5 MW LTO battery pack mentioned, I’d speculate that a higher power CAT C32 is likely to be the engine of choice as space and mass is highly limited.

This V12 is rated between 600 – 1800 BHP application dependent and importantly , weights the same 3 T as the Cat C27 used in the class 88. The class 93 designers will have to manage mass very carefully to achieve the same RA as the other locos is the family but it looks do-able.


To give the claimed Type 4 power output at Rail, the Cat C32 would need to be rated at approx. 1.06 MW (1422 BHP) and is likely within the range of the C32.

The LTO battery gives an additional 0.4 MW power boost, giving a total power at rail of 1.3 MW (1747 HP).

This is indeed similar to a typical Class 47 or HST power car power at rail and is required for the type 4 rating claimed, but with significantly higher starting TE!

I think the hybrid approach is a smart one as the LTO battery provides a power boost for acceleration and can be recharged when braking or by engine when power not required. This peak lopping gives the diesel a nice steady load with less sawtooth temp cycling common on large rail loco engines improving reliability. There is also the very real possibility that higher power LTO batteries may be available in the future that have the same mass and space requirements giving a significant power boost available as a retrofit package. Interesting times ahead based upon advances on battery technology!

I have used typical assumptions for AC drive + Ac motors, AC alternator + DC motors and DC generator- DC motor efficiency and not included any ETH load, which would not be required on freight or could be mitigated with load management when high acceleration required.

Ive compiled a table comparing typical mixed traffic UK locos and based the figures on common domain info.

 

[themiller]

I may have missed it but do we know whether the 93’s going to be 4 or 6 axle, yet? I understand that the picture has only been for demonstration of the proposed livery.

 

[ac6000cw]

I may have missed it but do we know whether the 93’s going to be 4 or 6 axle, yet? I understand that the picture has only been for demonstration of the proposed livery.

It's based on the 4-axle Class 88 design.

Quote from RAIL magazine - https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...s-fuels-its-ambitions-with-tri-mode-class-93s :

Chief Executive Officer Karl Watts, in an exclusive interview with RAIL on December 4, said: “We have gone for the Class 93 as it is the Class 68/‘88’ UKLIGHT platform.

“We needed that platform and the approvals that go with it. That is still two years from the order placed to the locomotive entering traffic in revenue-earning service. If we hadn’t got that, it would be four years.”

Watts said he had looked at the EuroDUAL locomotive offered by Stadler, but this did not fit the UK loading gauge. However, the Swiss manufacturer offered a solution involving an updated diesel alternator set plus Lithium Titanate Oxide (LTO).

He explained: “We had to be careful not to go too big. It’s an ‘88’ design with the biggest engine we could fit. It needs a bigger cooling system as a result. The LTO batteries are there to support the alternator set. The hybrid offers 1,800hp usable power compared with the 1,300hp from a ‘37’, so it is roughly comparable to a ‘47’ on diesel.”

 

[angryskipfan]

I believe is a 4 axle design based upon class 88/68 Eurolight platform. Reason being the platform has already been approved so approval process would be quicker see rail Jan 30 - Feb 12th Page 66.
Karl Watts (ROG director) recons 2 years from order placement to delivery/service vs 4 years+ for a new platform (6 axle Eurodual) which would need to be re-engineered to be compliant to UK loading gauge. The 6 axle Eurodual may be needed for a future heavy haul hybrid but this is in the future and there would be considerable up front engineering costs so a significant application would be needed. There are plenty of 6 axle heavy haul diesels kicking around in the UK for now.

 

[themiller]

I believe is a 4 axle design based upon class 88/68 Eurolight platform. Reason being the platform has already been approved so approval process would be quicker see rail Jan 30 - Feb 12th Page 66.
Karl Watts (ROG director) recons 2 years from order placement to delivery/service vs 4 years+ for a new platform (6 axle Eurodual) which would need to be re-engineered to be compliant to UK loading gauge. The 6 axle Eurodual may be needed for a future heavy haul hybrid but this is in the future and there would be considerable up front engineering costs so a significant application would be needed. There are plenty of 6 axle heavy haul diesels kicking around in the UK for now.

That's my point. It's based on the UKlight platform but it could still have 6 wheel bogies. As for the 6 axle heavy haul diesels, they're not electric and the improved environmental credentials of an electric is a big selling point now and into the future as companies try to improve their environmental performance.

 

[ac6000cw]

As for the 6 axle heavy haul diesels, they're not electric and the improved environmental credentials of an electric is a big selling point

We do have some 6-axle electric locos - the class 92...

From what they've said in the press, ROG are not really interested in the heavy freight market - 'fast freight', passenger and rolling stock movements seem to be what they are interested in - perfect for the class 93 design. A Co-Co design would just make it more expensive to buy and maintain with no real benefits. For them, it's a tri-mode class 37/47 replacement loco.

 

[rebmcr]

We do have some 6-axle electric locos - the class 92...

We don't have any 6-axle electrics with last-mile capability though, which would be the main factor determining whether a loco is truly successful in today's railway.

 

[Photohunter71]

The table a few posts above suggests an RA of 7 where RA5 or RA6 would have been ideal for this locomotive and methinks it will be a bit on the lardy side for a B0-Bo with extra equipment, therefore although based on the 68/88 platform, will it be a Co-Co wheelset?