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West Lothian buses

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herb21

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I'm near certain that infrastructure investments from Edinburgh City Council vastly supports lothian buses, from bus stop information and the likely hood that lothian seem to gather much work from thrid parties, such as operating the x98 special service from queensferry including the likes of private hire contract from school, colleges etc around Edinburgh.

Nothing stops Edinburgh Council making shareholder investments towards Lothian Buses either.

As mentioned by others above, infrastructure investments from any council will support the incumbent operator/operators (that is the nature of incumbency), and one would hope that the council and likely operators are in some degree of dialogue before around any major works, tax payers and council residents would have a serious reason for complaint if otherwise.

When it comes to tenders or contracts (and I admit this is not my area of expertise), but I am pretty sure that the city council would have to in the large majority of circumstances put the contracts out to open tender or risk falling foul of competition and state aid laws. Where Lothian benefit in this is that they are large enough to post the bonds/guarantees that smaller operators may not manage, and have benefit of depots and fleet in the right places to service Edinburgh and the Lothians.

Given the prices charged on most specials, I highly doubt they are done on a contract basis with the city council, however they may be contracted by 3rd parties. Obviously then it is simply Lothian benefiting from the incumbency factor and good corporate relationships.

I had a quick look at Lothian Buses Group financials from 2013 onward (that gives a 5 year window and is largely post the Transport for Edinburgh restructuring).

In that time there have been no capital contributions from any of Lothian Buses shareholders (Share Capital has remained at GBP 6.4m). Lothian Buses have however generated a net profit of GBP 42.6m and distributed dividends of GBP 27.7m in that period. Lothian have also sold goods or services to Edinburgh (including Transport for Edinburgh (TFE) and Edinburgh Trams), Midlothian and East Lothian Councils worth GBP 16.1m while purchasing GBP 7.3m. As such the councils have seen a net benefit of GBP 18.8m (there is a rounding difference) over the 5 years, arguably the opposite of funding. (I realise there is a slight complication in that Edinburgh councils share of dividends actually flow to TFE, but the point still holds)

Interestingly in the same period TFE group (this includes Lothian Buses as above) had a GBP 5.8m Capital investment in 2013 (although I this was really just the restructuring) but has no change since then. They have generated net profit of GBP 43.8m and distributed GBP 18.9 m in dividends to Edinburgh council (I have not included the non-controlling interests distribution as this will just be the 3 Lothian councils share of Lothian Buses). TFE Sold goods and services worth GBP 10.2m and purchased goods and services worth 20.5m in the same 5 year period from Edinburgh Council. As such Edinburgh Council had a net benefit of GBP 29.2m (again a rounding difference). TFE is however made more complex as they include Edinburgh Trams, so it isn't just the buses.
 
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In Focus

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As mentioned by others above, infrastructure investments from any council will support the incumbent operator/operators (that is the nature of incumbency), and one would hope that the council and likely operators are in some degree of dialogue before around any major works, tax payers and council residents would have a serious reason for complaint if otherwise.

When it comes to tenders or contracts (and I admit this is not my area of expertise), but I am pretty sure that the city council would have to in the large majority of circumstances put the contracts out to open tender or risk falling foul of competition and state aid laws. Where Lothian benefit in this is that they are large enough to post the bonds/guarantees that smaller operators may not manage, and have benefit of depots and fleet in the right places to service Edinburgh and the Lothians.

Given the prices charged on most specials, I highly doubt they are done on a contract basis with the city council, however they may be contracted by 3rd parties. Obviously then it is simply Lothian benefiting from the incumbency factor and good corporate relationships.

I had a quick look at Lothian Buses Group financials from 2013 onward (that gives a 5 year window and is largely post the Transport for Edinburgh restructuring).

In that time there have been no capital contributions from any of Lothian Buses shareholders (Share Capital has remained at GBP 6.4m). Lothian Buses have however generated a net profit of GBP 42.6m and distributed dividends of GBP 27.7m in that period. Lothian have also sold goods or services to Edinburgh (including Transport for Edinburgh (TFE) and Edinburgh Trams), Midlothian and East Lothian Councils worth GBP 16.1m while purchasing GBP 7.3m. As such the councils have seen a net benefit of GBP 18.8m (there is a rounding difference) over the 5 years, arguably the opposite of funding. (I realise there is a slight complication in that Edinburgh councils share of dividends actually flow to TFE, but the point still holds)

Interestingly in the same period TFE group (this includes Lothian Buses as above) had a GBP 5.8m Capital investment in 2013 (although I this was really just the restructuring) but has no change since then. They have generated net profit of GBP 43.8m and distributed GBP 18.9 m in dividends to Edinburgh council (I have not included the non-controlling interests distribution as this will just be the 3 Lothian councils share of Lothian Buses). TFE Sold goods and services worth GBP 10.2m and purchased goods and services worth 20.5m in the same 5 year period from Edinburgh Council. As such Edinburgh Council had a net benefit of GBP 29.2m (again a rounding difference). TFE is however made more complex as they include Edinburgh Trams, so it isn't just the buses.
And to add to the complication you now have LCB in the mix absolutely pouring money down a gigantic pit !!
I am sure many operators within West Lothina shall be more than a little aggrieved if it turns out West Lothian council are giving LCB any kind of preferential treatment for example low rate or plots of land for nothing !
 

herb21

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And to add to the complication you now have LCB in the mix absolutely pouring money down a gigantic pit !!
I am sure many operators within West Lothina shall be more than a little aggrieved if it turns out West Lothian council are giving LCB any kind of preferential treatment for example low rate or plots of land for nothing !

I presume LCB is costing them a fortune, but we will only be able to get a proper idea how much when the 2019 accounts are published. The 2018 accounts will be next to useless for that purpose (4 months of operations other than the 43). Since they publish full subsidiary accounts it isn't actually that hard to pull out the impact if someone wants to.

As I was trying to say above preferential treatment is very unlikely due to competition and state aid rules.
 

oldman

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Apart from the dividends, the councils benefit from a good quality service taking some people out of their cars and a willingness to do things without subsidy which may not be profitable such as early morning, late evening, Sunday, night buses every night, public holidays including Christmas and New Year, which seem to be better in Edinburgh than in many other cities served by more commercially-oriented companies.

Of course it would be nice if the councils did more about bus priority in return.
 

In Focus

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Apart from the dividends, the councils benefit from a good quality service taking some people out of their cars and a willingness to do things without subsidy which may not be profitable such as early morning, late evening, Sunday, night buses every night, public holidays including Christmas and New Year, which seem to be better in Edinburgh than in many other cities served by more commercially-oriented companies.

Of course it would be nice if the councils did more about bus priority in return.
Which is completely the opposite of what deragulisation and the fact almost every big City had to sell off their public transport to private operators ,which will be why Edinburgh (who for some odd reason escaped such issues)Is better off than most cities.
 

In Focus

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I presume LCB is costing them a fortune, but we will only be able to get a proper idea how much when the 2019 accounts are published. The 2018 accounts will be next to useless for that purpose (4 months of operations other than the 43). Since they publish full subsidiary accounts it isn't actually that hard to pull out the impact if someone wants to.

As I was trying to say above preferential treatment is very unlikely due to competition and state aid rules.
Yes tbe public will have to wait for figures bit those running the operation will already be well aware they have made a huge mistake and the only way to sort it is a straight choice of making an offer for First Livingston depot or cutting their losses , unless of course they believe First will move out voluntarily which is looking less likely with each passing month as passengers remain pretty loyal in many areas and changes planned for the spring.
 

overthewater

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When will phrase 4 come about or better still when will Lothian overhaul its operations? something needs to be done as some of the route are just pointless.
 

TheEastCoaster

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Slightly unrelated but Lothian country tweeted this morning “Dont Forget we run buses to Queensferry too”, I know they barely tweet about the 43 anymore so I couldn’t help but snicker
 

In Focus

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When will phrase 4 come about or better still when will Lothian overhaul its operations? something needs to be done as some of the route are just pointless.
I think staffing levels make phase a rather unlikely prospect at this stage , are they not already paying Lothian drivers at enhanced rate to cover some of the work?
I would imagine a network review is more a likely option at this point .
And how about this new "super depot " seems a long process considering the amount of vacant property that could accommodate them that is available in West Lothian?
 

TheEastCoaster

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Not happening as far as I am lead to believe .

As far as I can find everything seems to be hush hush right now, especially with LCB new depot, the gaps between phases 1-3 were early August, late September and early December, so if a Phase 4 happens I can imagine it would be after the depot move and a network review, so probably mid spring at this rate.
 

TheEastCoaster

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Should of shared it with the Airlink/Skylink Buses, surely once Lothian Country move out of Longstone there will be a good sense of free space :D
 

TheEastCoaster

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Saw this on another post, what are people’s thoughts?

PM0000923/345 Registered (Short notice)
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Route: Bathgate, South Bridge Street to Leith Street, Omni Centre Edinburgh via Livingston, Hermiston, Sighthill
Service number: N23 ()
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 25 Feb 2019

PM0000923/339 Registered (Short notice)
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Route: Deans, Broxburn to Edinburgh, Regent Road via Uphall, Craigshill, ;Livingston the Centre, Mid Calder, East Clader, Hermiston, Sighthill, Haymarket
Service number: 23 (X23)
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 25 Feb 2019

PM0000923/338 Registered (Short notice)
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Route: Deans North or Blackridge Main Street to Edinburgh, Regent Road via Bathgate, Livingston the Centre, Uphall, Haymarket
Service number: 24 (25)
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 25 Feb 2019

PM0000923/337 Registered (Short notice)
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Route: Livingston South Station to Inveralmond High School via Burnbank, Criagshill, Livingston the Centre, Dedridge, Livingston the Centre, Craigshill
Service number: 27 ()
Service type: Normal Stopping
Effective date: 25 Feb 2019
 

In Focus

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Saw this on another post, what are people’s thoughts?

PM0000923/345 Registered (Short notice)
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Route: Bathgate, South Bridge Street to Leith Street, Omni Centre Edinburgh via Livingston, Hermiston, Sighthill
Service number: N23 ()
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 25 Feb 2019

PM0000923/339 Registered (Short notice)
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Route: Deans, Broxburn to Edinburgh, Regent Road via Uphall, Craigshill, ;Livingston the Centre, Mid Calder, East Clader, Hermiston, Sighthill, Haymarket
Service number: 23 (X23)
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 25 Feb 2019

PM0000923/338 Registered (Short notice)
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Route: Deans North or Blackridge Main Street to Edinburgh, Regent Road via Bathgate, Livingston the Centre, Uphall, Haymarket
Service number: 24 (25)
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 25 Feb 2019

PM0000923/337 Registered (Short notice)
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD
Route: Livingston South Station to Inveralmond High School via Burnbank, Criagshill, Livingston the Centre, Dedridge, Livingston the Centre, Craigshill
Service number: 27 ()
Service type: Normal Stopping
Effective date: 25 Feb 2019
It's an emergency time table to take into account the road closure on Deans Road over Railway Bridge (at lidl) from 25/2/19 until 29/3/19.
The 23/24 services will have to divert down Carmondean to Eliburn North Roundabout along Houstongate to get to Appleton parkway to resume normal route and same on way back .
 

TheEastCoaster

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It's an emergency time table to take into account the road closure on Deans Road over Railway Bridge (at lidl) from 25/2/19 until 29/3/19.
The 23/24 services will have to divert down Carmondean to Eliburn North Roundabout along Houstongate to get to Appleton parkway to resume normal route and same on way back .

Oh gotcha, that makes more sense now!
 

In Focus

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As far as I can find everything seems to be hush hush right now, especially with LCB new depot, the gaps between phases 1-3 were early August, late September and early December, so if a Phase 4 happens I can imagine it would be after the depot move and a network review, so probably mid spring at this rate.

Very hush hush, wondering if any letters are being handed out to staff to inform them of future plans ? Must be grim not knowing what future plans are .
 

overthewater

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SO 6 hours a day on a weekday.. .. but where could the travel advisor be? Enquire desk at the shopping centres?

http://careers.lothianbuses.com/job/73568

Travel Advisor
  • West Lothian
  • Permanent
  • £8.21 p/h based on 30-31 hours per week

Are you a Lothian Group Travel Guru?

Skilled in the knowledge of Bus Routes and Ticket pricing

You might be interested in our newly created position of

Travel Advisor

Your Role

Lothian Country are continuing our successful expansion into West Lothian. As part of the Lothian family who are the principal transport provider in Edinburgh and the surrounding areas, we are celebrating 100 years of providing public transport in the city!

Combine your knowledge of the Lothian Network and mix it with top end customer service skills and you will fit into our Travel Advisor role.

Travel Advisor role

Based in West Lothian, in a brand “Travel Hub” you will be responsible for:-

- Providing effective and efficient sales and information service to customers in relation to all our Lothian family.

- Deal with any possible complaints, in a professional manner, turn their frown upside down!

- Work with management to stay updated on changes to our products and services

- Advise of best ticket options for our customers who are looking to travel on our Lothian Country services

Travel Advisor Requirements

- Knowledge is power! When it comes to our routes that is.

- People Person! Sounds obvious, previous experience in a customer facing role would be advantageous.

- Must have good organisational and IT skills and the ability to multitask

- Cash Handling Experience

Travel Advisor Benefits

- £8.21 p/h working 30 31 hours a week (with every 2nd weekend off!)

- Continual training and development to push forward your career

- Travel in Edinburgh and surrounding areas for FREE with your Ridacard valid on all our buses and Edinburgh Trams.
 

overthewater

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Routes need culled and revised, for starters

275: Gyle - Broxburn - Fastlink - livingston - Lidi - St Johns - Blackburn - Wester inch - Bathgate
287 withdrawn.
 

TheEastCoaster

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Probably at the Livi centre or designer outlet most likely, it’s certainly not a travel shop which is quite a letdown so no monthly or weekly ridacards for that matter, however as my speculating mind boggles at the words “continuing our successful expansion” should mean we shall be expecting news on a phase 4 eventually or new service changes!

Routes need culled and revised, for starters

275: Gyle - Broxburn - Fastlink - livingston - Lidi - St Johns - Blackburn - Wester inch - Bathgate
287 withdrawn.

Well if the 275 replaces the 287 partially between Blackburn and Bathgate then that could save a route, but then that’ll mean no link to Whitburn?

Extend the X18 to Fauldhouse via Whitburn, and create a new route linking Harthill with Edinburgh via Whitburn and Livingston
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Wonder if they can define " successful " as if say 90% buses running at less than 10% Capacity is the complete opposite . I will however congratulate them on positive spin and creating a job , more outlay .

I guess that they can claim that they have successfully started up a network from scratch, and they have obviously attracted some trade. Don't think that's unfair for them to claim that. Obviously, they are investing and maybe it will pay off in time?

However, my gut feeling (and it's nothing more) is that First will dig in and retain most of the trade (power of the incumbent etc), and that Lothian will lose considerably more than they will
 

SpeedbirdA350

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I still think had Lothian had gone in (I guess they still could) and undercut First in terms of price, providing better value for money, offered a ridacard etc.. then it might have been different by this stage in terms of passenger numbers and revenue. It does look like both companies will dig in for the long haul but how much revenue has First lost since Lothian went in?

If phase 4 will be in around Spring, do we think that is when more will come out about their Livi depot?

Aside from Livi, I have always wondered why Lothian (or Lothian Country) have not ran buses to and from the Ferrytoll Park and Ride in Inverkeithing. While it is in Fife, I am sure this would not be the reason for them not doing this run as they did do a service to Dunfermline many moons ago. And yes, while it's usually the express coaches that go there for Edinburgh, there is nothing stopping Lothian running an express via the Gyle where some work.
 

Jordan Adam

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Speaking to a few drivers i know at LCB recently. They've all been saying pretty much the same stuff.

Other than the Daytime X27/X28 none of the services are doing that well, with the majority of journeys not even breaking even. If they axed some of the other routes (280/287) and focused on increasing and improving the X27/X28 they might actually get somewhere.

First have realised their mistakes and are allegedly looking at a big service revision soon with lots of enhancements which will only worsen the case for Lothian.
 

overthewater

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If I was First I would steady as she goes and not waste resources on a big service revision, the network is decent as it is, and best it been in years. A few minor tweaks might be useful. First could get away with spending the cash. I caught 24 today and dozen people 4 got off a ratho, yet the X18 was empty behide.
 

In Focus

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It isn't
If I was First I would steady as she goes and not waste resources on a big service revision, the network is decent as it is, and best it been in years. A few minor tweaks might be useful. First could get away with spending the cash. I caught 24 today and dozen people 4 got off a ratho, yet the X18 was empty behide.
It won't be a "big revision" it will be more about consolidating current routes and making a few timetable adjustments in certain areas where LCB strategically placed their vehicles when starting the network .
I would guess LCB shall do likewise in time and on and on it shall go until someone blinks.
 

Driver362

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Don't think it's a fair assessment to say it's only x27/28 that's doing anything.The 275 is getting there with numbers as are some 280's . 287's can be dire as can most x18's re: numbers and the common denominator here is western inch ,great idea massive flop .To re: "overhewater" point on one being empty one with passengers,I have seen that role reversed many a time . As we all keep saying, time will tell
 
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