TPE Class 397 ('Nova 2') construction and updates

[Mathew S]

The EVN (European Vehicle Number) is on the data plate on each coach (pic in my post #410 above).
You can decode the set number from that.

How??

 

[hibtastic]

These units look fantastic - can’t wait to try them when I head up to Edinburgh.

How long before a 6th carriage is added though?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How??

I'm guessing, but I think the final 0034 at the end means the plate refers to coach 4 of set 003.
There are people on here who do know.

 

[driver9000]

How??

Look at the 6 digit vehicle number. That 2 digits identify the set. 471001 is the DMF of 397001 for example.

 

[Mathew S]

Look at the 6 digit vehicle number. That 2 digits identify the set. 471001 is the DMF of 397001 for example.

Thanks - I do know that
I was meaning how to work it out from the EVN, which is a lot longer than 6 digits.

 

[Chuggington21]

When can we expect them up in Scotland for testing

 

[driver9000]

Thanks - I do know that
I was meaning how to work it out from the EVN, which is a lot longer than 6 digits.

I'm not even going to attempt to work that out!

 

[samuelmorris]

I think this should explain it:
https://www.rssb.co.uk/Pages/improving-industry-performance/rail-vehicle-numbering-explained.aspx

 

[Mathew S]

I think this should explain it:
https://www.rssb.co.uk/Pages/improving-industry-performance/rail-vehicle-numbering-explained.aspx

Thanks

 

[Bertie the bus]

How long before a 6th carriage is added though?

Almost certainly never.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Almost certainly never.

Give it a year or two and overcrowding will be back where it was, then. I am confident that all of the TPE stock will need to be 7 or even 8-car eventually. The step change in quality will attract lots of new passengers - even from VTWC.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It isn't important if you think they need to be 13 carriages long. First got their sums hopelessly wrong with the TPE franchise and they aren't going to splash the cash when the franchise is haemorrhaging money. Not that they would anyway unless it was a specific franchise commitment. I really don't understand where this presumption of franchises spending money they're not committed to spend comes from. It's fantasy.

 

[themiller]

It isn't important if you think they need to be 13 carriages long. First got their sums hopelessly wrong with the TPE franchise and they aren't going to splash the cash when the franchise is haemorrhaging money. Not that they would anyway unless it was a specific franchise commitment. I really don't understand where this presumption of franchises spending money they're not committed to spend comes from. It's fantasy.

TOCs don’t spend money on rolling stock. It,s ROSCOs that do that and charge TOCs a leasing charge. if the servic becomes too popular, the Passengers in Excess of Capacity factor comes in and may make it worthwhile financially to lengthen trains. But that would require a long time left on the lease in order to benefit.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TOCs don’t spend money on rolling stock. It,s ROSCOs that do that and charge TOCs a leasing charge. if the servic becomes too popular, the Passengers in Excess of Capacity factor comes in and may make it worthwhile financially to lengthen trains. But that would require a long time left on the lease in order to benefit.

Well that didn't work for the 185s or Voyagers, did it, with the SRA/DfT refusing to authorise the lengthening of the trains while the manufacturing options were available.
The TPE franchise at least has priced options for new/longer EMUs, but they will no doubt be time-limited by CAF.
Originally it was to prepare for full TP North electrification, but we know that is not going to happen anytime soon.
If another franchise were to order 397s it would prolong the production, but there have been no hints of that.

 

[Bertie the bus]

TOCs don’t spend money on rolling stock. It,s ROSCOs that do that and charge TOCs a leasing charge. if the servic becomes too popular, the Passengers in Excess of Capacity factor comes in and may make it worthwhile financially to lengthen trains. But that would require a long time left on the lease in order to benefit.

Of course TOCs spend money on rolling stock. They lease it - do you think they pay the lease charges with buttons?

 

[absolutelymilk]

Of course TOCs spend money on rolling stock. They lease it - do you think they pay the lease charges with buttons?

Think they were referring to *new* rolling stock.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think the point of discussion is more rolling stock - even though they don't pay for the stock directly, leasing more vehicles than before is going to have a corresponding effect on the lease charges, so the net result is the same - the TOC has to spend more money if they want more capacity. It's only when replacing old stock with an equivalent number of new units that it's less obvious when lease costs are involved.

 

[sprinterguy]

The TPE franchise at least has priced options for new/longer EMUs, but they will no doubt be time-limited by CAF.

The option was supposed to be exercised before 1st April 2018, if First chose to take it up. Presumably First could still go to CAF and request 'X' additional class 397 units, but it would be subject to an entirely new contract and price.

 

[themiller]

Of course TOCs spend money on rolling stock. They lease it - do you think they pay the lease charges with buttons?

But that’s rental not capital spend. If they bought extra coaches, either they’d end up with an asset on their books or hawk them round ROSCOs to offload them as some companies have done. The problem in this case is that they’d be tied to a ROSCO who owned a compatible train to put them in thus reducing the market to one with all the lack of financial leverage that would ensue in this case. Far better to get the ROSCO to make the investment and lease them along with the rest of the train. It’s a complicated world, isn’t it?

 

[notlob.divad]

The option was supposed to be exercised before 1st April 2018, if First chose to take it up. Presumably First could still go to CAF and request 'X' additional class 397 units, but it would be subject to an entirely new contract and price.

Given not one has entered service yet, if that is the case then someone needs bringing up over the contract. You would surely expect a time out clause on options to be within X months/weeks of the last one entering service. Having a hard deadline for ordering more, that could be before the first has turned a wheel in passenger operations would be the pit of stupidity, and so I am convinced it is what will have happened.

 

[hibtastic]

Give it a year or two and overcrowding will be back where it was, then. I am confident that all of the TPE stock will need to be 7 or even 8-car eventually. The step change in quality will attract lots of new passengers - even from VTWC.

I am sure one of the posters with inside knowledge at TPE said a while ago that a 6th carriage was a possibility for the 397s and this was being looked at. I would not rule it out.

 

[_toommm_]

So just to remind myself, the 185s are planned to be doubled up on the Airport to Cleethorpes runs, and the IEPs on the Airport/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh services, and the MK5a sets on the services to Scarborough and presumably Middlesbrough?

So what are the 397s for? Are they for the proposed ECML runs to Edinburgh?

 

[superalbs]

So what are the 397s for? Are they for the proposed ECML runs to Edinburgh?

They're for the WCML runs.

 

[158820]

So just to remind myself, the 185s are planned to be doubled up on the Airport to Cleethorpes runs, and the IEPs on the Airport/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh services, and the MK5a sets on the services to Scarborough and presumably Middlesbrough?

So what are the 397s for? Are they for the proposed ECML runs to Edinburgh?

397 replace 350s on WMCL. IEP on Edinburgh via ECML

 

[ainsworth74]

So just to remind myself, the 185s are planned to be doubled up on the Airport to Cleethorpes runs, and the IEPs on the Airport/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh services, and the MK5a sets on the services to Scarborough and presumably Middlesbrough?

You've got the IET and 397s the wrong way around. IETs are going over the Pennines and always have been. It's why they're the bi-mode version not the EMU version. Though presumably TPE had expected they'd be able to have Hitachi remove the diesels before too long and convert them to EMUs. Sadly not looking likely anymore

 

[_toommm_]

Thanks guys!

And the Edinburgh extensions are presumably running in the current path of one of the Newcastle terminators?

 

[Chuggington21]

The Edinburgh extensions will be the 802s

 

[BMIFlyer]

The Liverpool to Newcastle trains will become Liverpool to Edinburgh. The first one begins on 20 May which is the 2025 from Liverpool (through Newcastle at 2325 ish) and something in the region of 0600 from Edinburgh (0735 or thereabouts from Newcastle) to Liverpool. Class 185 operated for now.

 

[_toommm_]

The Liverpool to Newcastle trains will become Liverpool to Edinburgh. The first one begins on 20 May which is the 2025 from Liverpool (through Newcastle at 2325 ish) and something in the region of 0600 from Edinburgh (0735 or thereabouts from Newcastle) to Liverpool. Class 185 operated for now.

Cheers BMI! Any idea on the stopping pattern going North of Newcastle?

 

[TBSchenker]

9M05 0517 Edinburgh - Liverpool via Newcastle.

Passes Ordsall Lane Jn at 0927, which is 10 minutes after the 0614 Edinburgh - Manchester Airport via Preston. How many times will those two delay each other?!