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What are these?

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Ken H

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There were two issues with this:

1. A higher power AWS system was required to mitigate against the d.c. power from cross track traction current cables
2. The fact that, particularly in denser traffic areas on the approaches to London drivers would often be running to a succession of double yellow or even single yellow signal aspects. There were concerns about drivers being lulled into automatically cancelling the AWS and potentially doing so on the approach to red signals.

By the 1970’s ‘green’ higher power AWS magnets were available, and attitudes had changed to the double yellow issue. I believe London Bridge Resignalling in the mid/late 1970’s had AWS throughout, certainly the follow up scheme Victoria Area Resignalling was so equipped (I was heavily involved with that Contract), with other lines subject to their own installation programmes.
why was the successive double yellow/repeated AWS issue just a southern issue? surely the same was true on many busy lines north of the Thames? Surely the lines out of Liverpool St and Fenchurch Street were the same?

and was the higher power AWS magnets really so technically difficult?

Or was it really the Southern region being independant?

Then again there was Signal Repeating AWS. originally it was Southern Region AWS or SRAWS. An opportunity missed IMHO. double yellow issue solved.
 
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Llama

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When the Chat Moss electrification was nearly complete at the western end, two green AWS magnets appeared in the fourfoot at Bootle Branch Jn on the down line, about 150 feet apart. APC magnets were obviously a new concept to somebody. I don't know why they were green, and they got shifted after a few days.
 

Tomnick

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Perhaps a present day driver could say how they would feel about driving in bad weather at night without AWS. Especially in semaphore signalled areas.
There are very few semaphore distant signals (the only ones where AWS is normally provided) left, so that’s not really a widespread problem nowadays. It’s harder trying to find a semaphore home signal in fog once you’ve passed the distant at caution, and they’re much more common!

From day to day, the AWS isn’t enormously beneficial generally - you’ll normally have seen and, if necessary, responded to the signal by the time you get to the magnet anyway, in all but the thickest of fog for colour-light signals. When it comes into its own is when you least expect it, when you’ve let your mind wander and haven’t noticed, and that’s the big benefit. It is useful to have the sunflower to refer to though, e.g. when there’s a heavy TSR between two signals, just for an extra check that you really did have a green before you open up after the TSR and towards the next signal.
 

ComUtoR

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AWS made passing signals harder, and later missing speed restrictions harder too. Good news for drivers (and passengers)

AWS is too easy to cancel and ignore. If AWS truly made passing signals harder, then I doubt we would see so many passed each year. It certainly helped but tbh I'm not convinced anymore. Repetitive AWS cancellation and over reliance on safety systems is contributing to incidents.

Perhaps a present day driver could say how they would feel about driving in bad weather at night without AWS. Especially in semaphore signalled areas.

I haven't driven Semaphore for a long time so I'd pass that one over but I don't have any issues driving at night or bad weather without AWS. I am much more focused on the signal itself. The rule book changed recently and the restrictive speed increased so I think that also says something about running without AWS.

AWS, more than anything, tends to wake you up...
 

Belperpete

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why was the successive double yellow/repeated AWS issue just a southern issue? surely the same was true on many busy lines north of the Thames? Surely the lines out of Liverpool St and Fenchurch Street were the same?

and was the higher power AWS magnets really so technically difficult?

Or was it really the Southern region being independant?

Then again there was Signal Repeating AWS. originally it was Southern Region AWS or SRAWS. An opportunity missed IMHO. double yellow issue solved.
Signalling-wise, all the regions were independent. Each region had its own standard way of doing things, regardless of what HQ said. Each region had its own typical circuits, its own standards, and their own interpretation of HQ standards (in many cases, the interpretation was "ignore it, carry on doing it our way"!). It was only really the introduction of Solid State Interlocking in the late 1980s that forced the regions to conform, as they had to use the same data constructs.

In the early days of AWS, the Southern took the view that rather than spending money fitting AWS to semaphore distant signals, a better safety return could be achieved for the money by converting the distants to colour-light.

The need for higher power magnets to be developed also delayed the introduction of AWS in the early days. In addition, the need to source the higher power was an on-going problem, particularly for suppressed magnets which draw a lot of power (the original green suppressors could get too hot to touch). Ironically, even in electrified areas where you might think getting a power supply should be easy, power could be a problem. Unlike in AC traction areas, where significant work usually has to be done to make the signalling immune to the traction, in DC traction areas very little immunisation work was needed. So in the DC electrified areas there were many signalboxes that still relied on the same dry-cell battery power-supplies as they had pre-electrification.

Certainly the issue of repeated double-yellows was considered a big issue by the Southern, which is why the Southern Region AWS (SRAWS, or Signal Repeating AWS as it was later called) was developed. In the inner suburban areas, particularly in the four-track areas with parallel signals on fast and slow lines, much of the signalling was designed so that the double-yellow gave braking distance for the fasts, and the single-yellow gave braking distance for the stoppers. This allowed the required headways to be achieved for both fast and stopping trains, with fairly uniformly-spaced signals in parallel on both fast and slow lines. However, it meant stoppers routinely ignored the double-yellow and only commenced braking on the yellow. I can't say why other regions didn't think this such a big issue, but I suspect (because their signalling often tended to be much "messier" in the inner suburban areas, often with different signal spacings or additional signals on the slow lines) that the signalling wasn't designed on the same basis.
 

Tim M

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I have often wondered, why do they have ramps?

They are used to protect against wagon couplings damaging the magnets. Not so many of those on modern stock but is still a sensible precaution against anything hanging down from a train.
 

MarkyT

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Merseyrail underground sections have no AWS.
I think Merseyrail has LU style mechanical train-stops in the tunnels. The signalling layouts will be designed with fully braked overlaps. I don't know if they will keep the train-stops for the new stock or swap them for some new kind of transponder as Berlin S-bahn are doing. Berlin are substituting a bespoke 'limited supervision' replacement system using Eurobalises called ZBS.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Zugbeeinflussungssystem_S-Bahn_Berlin
The Berlin S-Bahn Train Control System - Zugbeeinflussungssystem S-Bahn Berlin (ZBS) - is a train protection system based on Eurobalises that is designed for the specific requirements of the S-Bahn Berlin rapid transit rail network. It is able to gradually replace the old system based on train stops with overlap safety. The conversion will be finished on the subnetwork Stadtbahn until the end of 2020, on the subnetwork Nord-Süd until the end of 2023 and on the subnetwork Ring until the end of 2025.[1]
 

ic31420

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Can I join in

What's this contraption, looks like an aluminium bar with a box with an aerial?
 

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ic31420

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Possibly linked to this white box with aerials
 

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30907

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why was the successive double yellow/repeated AWS issue just a southern issue? surely the same was true on many busy lines north of the Thames? Surely the lines out of Liverpool St and Fenchurch Street were the same?

and was the higher power AWS magnets really so technically difficult?

Or was it really the Southern region being independant?

Then again there was Signal Repeating AWS. originally it was Southern Region AWS or SRAWS. An opportunity missed IMHO. double yellow issue solved.
The LTS was the original LMS installation IIRC, but was that with colour lights?
The ER only had colour lights over any distance out of Liverpool St - not sure what the history of AWS installation there is?
 
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