Potential Labour Party split (Split now happened).

[Typhoon]

You never knew the 'fact' because it ain't true! Many did lose their seats, of course, but some didn't e.g. off the top of my head David Owen and John Cartwright. Many LABOUR MPs lost their seats to Tories in the same election, which Margaret Thatcher fought on a 'patriotic, anti-Argentinian' ticket. Prior to that general election Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams, two of the original Gang of Four, had put themselves forward in by-elections and won. History lesson over, all done without the 'aid' of Wikipedia!

Absolutely correct. You can add Robert Maclennan* (who was an MP for ages) and Ian Wrigglesworth (who I admit to checking) to the list. There may have been a couple more.

EDIT:
Confirmation of above
* https://www.libdems.org.uk/bob_maclennan, https://www.libdems.org.uk/ian_wrigglesworth

 

[Jonny]

You never knew the 'fact' because it ain't true! Many did lose their seats, of course, but some didn't e.g. off the top of my head David Owen and John Cartwright. Many LABOUR MPs lost their seats to Tories in the same election, which Margaret Thatcher fought on a 'patriotic, anti-Argentinian' ticket. Prior to that general election Roy Jenkins and Shirley Williams, two of the original Gang of Four, had put themselves forward in by-elections and won. History lesson over, all done without the 'aid' of Wikipedia!

It clearly show at least 23 Labour mps switching to SDP in 1981 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_politicians_who_have_crossed_the_floor which part of the fact isnt true?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/25/newsid_2506000/2506367.stm
The Liberal-SDP alliance could boast 30 MPs by the middle of 1982. Most were former Labour MPs - only one Conservative crossed the floor - but the alliance did win a handful of by-elections.

Absolutely correct. You can add Robert Maclennan* (who was an MP for ages) and Ian Wrigglesworth (who I admit to checking) to the list. There may have been a couple more.

EDIT:
Confirmation of above
* https://www.libdems.org.uk/bob_maclennan, https://www.libdems.org.uk/ian_wrigglesworth

And yet, not one of the Independent Group has (yet) to offer their constituents a by-election. So much for so-called People's vote, it seems that they only want it when it suits them!

 

[DarloRich]

Something to ponder on. We have seen a lot of hot air about these mps standing on a labour manifesto and subsequently not honouring that manifesto by leaving the labour party.

Oddly Mr Corbyn was elected in 1997, 2001 and 2005 on a evil blairist manifesto that he obviously hated. He and his chums wouldn't be showing hypocrisy would they?

 

[Typhoon]

And yet, not one of the Independent Group has (yet) to offer their constituents a by-election. So much for so-called People's vote, it seems that they only want it when it suits them!

Was it ever different? I think that only one of the Labour defectors to the SDP did (and lost) - might do some research. The honourable exceptions of late were the UKIP two.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I said earlier, technically true but in reality most people do vote for the party. Again this is why you get safe seats and the like. Not because of the MP but because of the colour they wear.

Yes, though there are bigger changes that are more important to make if we accept that than this one.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Something to ponder on. We have seen a lot of hot air about these mps standing on a labour manifesto and subsequently not honouring that manifesto by leaving the labour party.

Oddly Mr Corbyn was elected in 1997, 2001 and 2005 on a evil blairist manifesto that he obviously hated. He and his chums wouldn't be showing hypocrisy would they?

Absolutely this. A very good point.

 

[krus_aragon]

Something to ponder on. We have seen a lot of hot air about these mps standing on a labour manifesto and subsequently not honouring that manifesto by leaving the labour party.

Oddly Mr Corbyn was elected in 1997, 2001 and 2005 on a evil blairist manifesto that he obviously hated. He and his chums wouldn't be showing hypocrisy would they?

On a different forum interface, I'd be clicking "+1 insightful" as quick as I could here...

There is, however, the counter-argument that Mr Corbyn never took the step of leaving the party (to the best of my knowledge).

(edit: typo)

 

[YorkshireBear]

There seems to be an awful lot of talk here and everywhere about respect for Corbyn because he maintains his principles. For me, maintaining every single principle you have is for the back benchers. Corbyn wants to be a leader. A leader must make decisions that are necessary even if potentially they are unpopular or they do not actually believe in them 100%. I don't believe Corbyn is capable of this and therefore he cannot be an effective leader. The reason I think this, is if he thinks the tories are such an evil force in this country, he should make himself electable to ensure they do not maintain power. His principles are worth nothing with the Tories in charge.

 

[edwin_m]

And yet, not one of the Independent Group has (yet) to offer their constituents a by-election. So much for so-called People's vote, it seems that they only want it when it suits them!

I'm pretty sure for a by-election they would have to resign and therefore no longer have a seat. And if it's their former parties who move the writ they probably won't be in much of a hurry to do so. So if that happened the two party leaders would conveniently have rid themselves of several of their opponents during a period which will probably include some of the most important votes in recent history. This would make it virtually impossible to resign from a party on a matter of principle.

 

[DarloRich]

Ian Austin ( MP for Dudley North) has quite the Labour party but not aligned himself to TIG. BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47330079

Ian Austin has become the ninth MP to quit Labour this week, blaming leader Jeremy Corbyn for "creating a culture of extremism and intolerance".

Mr Austin said: "This is the most difficult decision I've ever had to take but I've taken it because I've become ashamed of the Labour Party.

"I grew up listening to my dad, who was a refugee from the Holocaust, teaching me about the evils of hatred and prejudice.

"One of the main reasons I joined the Labour Party as a teenager here in Dudley more than 35 years ago was to fight racism and I could never have believed I would be leaving the Labour party because of racism too."

And yet, not one of the Independent Group has (yet) to offer their constituents a by-election. So much for so-called People's vote, it seems that they only want it when it suits them!

I wonder why the Corbyn fan boys overlook Jared O'Mara. He quite the Labour Party Odd that that only call for by elections for people who critisce their hero.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Something to ponder on. We have seen a lot of hot air about these mps standing on a labour manifesto and subsequently not honouring that manifesto by leaving the labour party.

Oddly Mr Corbyn was elected in 1997, 2001 and 2005 on a evil blairist manifesto that he obviously hated. He and his chums wouldn't be showing hypocrisy would they?

A strange comment. The whole point surely is that the Labour Party may reflect many differing opinions. Those who disagreed with the New Labour approach were perfectly entitled to remain in the party, as were those who have just left. Anyway, I thought that it had nothing to do with the 2017 manifesto and was all about anti-semitism. I haven't read anything from the splitters about the recent manifesto, although apparently Chris Leslie was a fan of George Osborne's austerity policies when he was Shadow Chancellor...that says a lot!

 

[DarloRich]

A strange comment. The whole point surely is that the Labour Party may reflect many differing opinions. Those who disagreed with the New Labour approach were perfectly entitled to remain in the party, as were those who have just left. Anyway, I thought that it had nothing to do with the 2017 manifesto and was all about anti-semitism. I haven't read anything from the splitters about the recent manifesto, although apparently Chris Leslie was a fan of George Osborne's austerity policies when he was Shadow Chancellor...that says a lot!

if you cant see the striking hypocrisy in the behaviour of the Corbyn fan boys and in the past history of the man himself we are all in trouble!

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

if you cant see the striking hypocrisy in the behaviour of the Corbyn fan boys and in the past history of the man himself we are all in trouble!

You would be entitled to claim hypocrisy if Corbyn and others had left the Labour Party during the Blair years and didn't resign their seats....then Blair could have said, well, they fought the election on the New labour manifesto etc etc...the whole point is that they didn't leave. Surely you remember that in those heady days of New Labour Corbyn (hardly a household name then) was a very minor irritant. He doesn't even get a mention in Alastair Campbell's diaries. Whatever happened to New Labour, I wonder?

 

[DarloRich]

You would be entitled to claim hypocrisy if Corbyn and others had left the Labour Party during the Blair years and didn't resign their seats....then Blair could have said, well, they fought the election on the New labour manifesto etc etc...the whole point is that they didn't leave. Surely you remember that in those heady days of New Labour Corbyn (hardly a household name then) was a very minor irritant. He doesn't even get a mention in Alastair Campbell's diaries. Whatever happened to New Labour, I wonder?

Corbyn stood and was elected on a manifesto that he subsequently voted against 100's of times. It is hypocritical of him and his fans to complain that these MP's don't stand behind the manifesto they were elected on (and that if they cant do that they should resign and offer a by election) when he voted time and again against the manifesto he was elected to parliament under time and again.

It is hypocritical of him and his fans to demand loyalty to the dear leader when he has shown no loyalty to his elected leader throughout his career. He is a serial offender who has tried to unseat every Labour leader he has served under yet all must show fealty to him now.

The behviaour and record of the man is clear.

 

[smtglasgow]

I’ve only ever voted Labour, but Corbyn lost me last summer. The hard-left clique around Corbyn are facilitating Brexit – against the wishes of the Party – but I’m also sickened by the toxic Anti-Semitism and bullying and the 1970s style anti-West rhetoric. The Corbynites have full control of the Party so must be left to drive it into the ground. It’s early days with the Independent Group, but if they can coalesce around broadly centre-left Social Democratic values, count me in. They could always call it New Labour

 

[DarloRich]

I’ve only ever voted Labour, but Corbyn lost me last summer. The hard-left clique around Corbyn are facilitating Brexit – against the wishes of the Party – but I’m also sickened by the toxic Anti-Semitism and bullying and the 1970s style anti-West rhetoric. The Corbynites have full control of the Party so must be left to drive it into the ground. It’s early days with the Independent Group, but if they can coalesce around broadly centre-left Social Democratic values, count me in. They could always call it New Labour

Same for me. The Corbynites ( we like a sect or faction on the left dont we?!) offer a bridge into the party to the more extreme SWP/trot/militant/Marxist types. The real problem is that these characters now hold the mechanisms & bureaucracy of the party in their control which I think is their main aim.

 

[HH]

And, for those who don't know what Trotskyist means, it means using any method to bring about the glorious Revolution everywhere and anywhere.

However, Corbyn is not a Trotskyist, he is a State Socialist (or, as critics would say, a State Capitalist - the workers don't have control, as in Marxist-Leninist Socialism - the state does). The rifts and schisms of the Left are legendary.

 

[Clip]

Something to ponder on. We have seen a lot of hot air about these mps standing on a labour manifesto and subsequently not honouring that manifesto by leaving the labour party.

Oddly Mr Corbyn was elected in 1997, 2001 and 2005 on a evil blairist manifesto that he obviously hated. He and his chums wouldn't be showing hypocrisy would they?

I tried to post a photo yesterday that claims whilst Corbyn claims these people who left showed a lack of loyalty, he himself voted against hisparty leadership 428 times if not more. So it smacks of hypocrisy for people to be telling them that they are wrong when the exhalted leader has done the same - but they wont care about that because the only principles are corbyns principles

 

[Busaholic]

On the matter of by-elections and 'defectors', I don't hold strong views on this either way. Sometimes MPs get accused of 'grandstanding' or worse when they stand down and offer themselves for re-election. I seem to remember that David Davis got an enormous amount of flak from fellow Tories when he took that option, on the basis of cost and unnecessarily bothering the local electorate etc etc. He was re-elected, of course, so his finest hour could come as Brexit Secretary

In the case of the SDP Bruce Douglas-Mann felt the electors of Mitcham and Morden should have the opportunity to decide if they still wanted him as MP, and they didn't! No others followed him, unsurprisingly.

The primary reason for General Election candidates acquiring party labels after their names was 'personation', in particular when SDP leader Roy Jenkins sought election in Glasgow Hillhead. A chancer changed his name by deed poll to the same as Jenkins and stood against him! Without any other distinguishing feature, who could tell which was being voted for? The genuine Jenkins (or his party officials) were given special dispensation to hand out leaflets at each polling station to inform voters which position on the ballot paper was occupied by their candidate. Cue change in electoral law, but we still IN PRINCIPLE vote for individuals.

 

[furnessvale]

And, for those who don't know what Trotskyist means, it means using any method to bring about the glorious Revolution everywhere and anywhere.

However, Corbyn is not a Trotskyist, he is a State Socialist (or, as critics would say, a State Capitalist - the workers don't have control, as in Marxist-Leninist Socialism - the state does). The rifts and schisms of the Left are legendary.

Life of Brian?

 

[adrock1976]

According to the Unlock Democracy website, The Independent Group is registered as a corporate entity rather than a political party (see https://unlockdemocracy.org/blog-1/..._content=190222+-+Independent+group+blog+E7-9).

There are other signs that the Independent Group is leaning heavily on the Westminster playbook to get power, rather than doing politics differently. The fact that the group has been registered as a corporate entity rather than a political party means that they are very conveniently able to dodge provisions in electoral law and hide their donations from public scrutiny - a tactic preferred by many dodgy donors and corporations who don’t want the public to know they are funding political activity.

This of course allows the members to circumvent Electoral Commission rules regarding donations, according to the paragraph above.

 

[Butts]

I would like to see a new Political Party representing "middle of the road" electors emerge from the current debacle we face.

Left Wing Conservatives (like me) Right Wing Labour (Darlorich ?) and Liberal Democrats .....

Incidentally can anyone else claim (or perhaps I should say admit to !!) to have voted Conservative in General Elections in England , Scotland and Wales at different points in their life ?

Perhaps I have a Labour contemporary with the same record ?

Have any other members lived in England, Scotland and Wales ?

 

[Ken H]

On the matter of by-elections and 'defectors', I don't hold strong views on this either way. Sometimes MPs get accused of 'grandstanding' or worse when they stand down and offer themselves for re-election. I seem to remember that David Davis got an enormous amount of flak from fellow Tories when he took that option, on the basis of cost and unnecessarily bothering the local electorate etc etc. He was re-elected, of course, so his finest hour could come as Brexit Secretary

In the case of the SDP Bruce Douglas-Mann felt the electors of Mitcham and Morden should have the opportunity to decide if they still wanted him as MP, and they didn't! No others followed him, unsurprisingly.

The primary reason for General Election candidates acquiring party labels after their names was 'personation', in particular when SDP leader Roy Jenkins sought election in Glasgow Hillhead. A chancer changed his name by deed poll to the same as Jenkins and stood against him! Without any other distinguishing feature, who could tell which was being voted for? The genuine Jenkins (or his party officials) were given special dispensation to hand out leaflets at each polling station to inform voters which position on the ballot paper was occupied by their candidate. Cue change in electoral law, but we still IN PRINCIPLE vote for individuals.

But actually people vote for the party, or even the leader. I doubt many people can actually name their MP, eve though they voted for them.

 

[thenorthern]

Although the split has happened I can't see The Independent Group (the tigs) getting anywhere as already they seem to be disagreeing on policy and direction.

At the moment they are getting their 15 mins of fame but the novelty will wear off, as I say media coverage/participation will be their downfall as a party which has never had any MPs elected and only has 11 MPs will at most get as much coverage as UKIP and the Lib Dems if they are lucky let alone the amount of coverage Labour and the Conservative Party get.

 

[Typhoon]

But actually people vote for the party, or even the leader. I doubt many people can actually name their MP, eve though they voted for them.

I think this may apply more to younger (or middle aged) people. A lot of the older people where I live not only know the MPs name but refer to him by first name only. He's been the MP for ages and makes a point of attending events where older people are likely to be, he's also good at involving himself in relevant local issues and resolving problems. I would say that he has a significant personal vote that has taken time to accumulate. When he retires, I suspect his substantial majority will be cut, not because some of these voters will switch but they won't bother turning out, especially if the weather is bad.

Liberal Democrats tend to be good at building a personal vote - I know more about the problems in Eastbourne than I do about many constituencies closer to me because the MP (now an independent) is very good at campaigning on local issues which provide useful fodder for TV news.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thinking that has come from decades of continual media propaganda from the right wing press.

A very common mistake that seems to be insidious amongst many on the left today: Assume that anyone who disagrees with you must have been somehow manipulated by the right wing press (whereas presumably your own opinions are completely impartial, and the result of objectively looking at lots of evidence, and not remotely influenced by any left wing blogs etc.?)

 

[thenorthern]

Yesterday I saw a graphic of the old Social Democratic Party which showed that of the 31 MPs that defected to the party or won a by-election since 1981 28 went on to fight the 1983 general election for the SDP and of those 28 only 5 were re-elected at the 1983 General election. Later at the 1987 general election only 3 were re-elected and of those three only 1 (Robert Maclennan) became a Liberal Democrat MP when the SDP and the Liberal Party merged in 1988. (David Owen and John Cartwright chose to stay in a rump SDP which was dissolved in 1990)

History is really not on the side of The Independent Group and the failure of the SDP to achieve anything shows that. I must admit though personally I am not a fan of the old SDP as they were founded and lead by Roy Jenkins who personally I think is the worst politician ever.

 

[Butts]

Yesterday I saw a graphic of the old Social Democratic Party which showed that of the 31 MPs that defected to the party or won a by-election since 1981 28 went on to fight the 1983 general election for the SDP and of those 28 only 5 were re-elected at the 1983 General election. Later at the 1987 general election only 3 were re-elected and of those three only 1 (Robert Maclennan) became a Liberal Democrat MP when the SDP and the Liberal Party merged in 1988. (David Owen and John Cartwright chose to stay in a rump SDP which was dissolved in 1990)

History is really not on the side of The Independent Group and the failure of the SDP to achieve anything shows that. I must admit though personally I am not a fan of the old SDP as they were founded and lead by Roy Jenkins who personally I think is the worst politician ever.

Speaking as a Scottish Conservative I find this statement quite baffling.

As Home Secretary he was at the helm or started the ball rolling for The Abolition of Capital Punishment, Decriminalisation of Homosexuality, Legalisation of Abortion and liberalising Divorce Laws amongst other progressive measures.

He was also the only British President of the European Commission and a distinguished Biographer.

The son of a Welsh Miner he also served as an intelligence officer during WW2.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

History is really not on the side of The Independent Group and the failure of the SDP to achieve anything shows that. I must admit though personally I am not a fan of the old SDP as they were founded and lead by Roy Jenkins who personally I think is the worst politician ever.

I would say what really did it for the SDP was the Falklands War. When the SDP first formed, opinion polls initially showed them set to win an election - and they were in that situation in large part because both Labour and the Tories were hugely unpopular - Labour being widely seen as having become extremist and the Mrs. Thatcher's Government being seen as callous. That SDP gloss faded a little over the next year but they were still ahead - and then suddenly the Falklands War happened, and suddenly Mrs. Thatcher was a war hero in the minds of - a large proportion of the electorate. From that point on, there was no doubt that the Tories were going to win the next election massively, SDP or no SDP. I'm pretty sure that, if the Falklands War hadn't happened, the SDP would have remained a potent political force, and would have been in a very good position to become the biggest party in Parliament in 1983 or 1984.

Having said that, I agree with you that it seems hard to see the Independent Group getting very far. Compared to the SDP, they are lead by less well known figures, they don't seem so far to be nearly as well organised. And where, 38 years ago, the SDP were very effective at getting media coverage, I see no sign that the Independent Group have achieved that to anything like the same extent. Particularly on social media - today as important as traditional media - they seem to be almost completely absent. On the other hand, Theresa May is no Margaret Thatcher, so it seems extremely unlikely that anything comparable to the Falklands War is going to come along and rescue her.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Tom Bower has done a total demolition job on Comrade Corbyn , reviewed in the Times yesterday. (Bower does a demolition job very well !)

Compare and contrast Attlee to Corbyn ......?