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Oyster at Epsom from Monday

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ForTheLoveOf

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Vauxhall (Z1/2) £7.30 peak, £5.10 off-peak (seems to be charging Z1 fare as 'Ticket issued to: LONDON TERMINALS', which makes no sense with PAYG)
This may be because it's assuming travel via Waterloo, as there's no way of detecting whether or not you've gone that way (as you can change platform within the paid area).
 
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si404

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Using TfL Fare finder, now it has the Epsom fares on it

testing those odd bugs:
Clapham High Street £5.30 peak, £3.70 off-peak (TfL have it right)
Vauxhall £7.30 peak, £5.10 off-peak (still charging Z1 fare - ForTheLoveOf is right, AFAICS)

TfL is giving Stoneleigh (despite it being Z5, not Z4 - error?) and Worcester Park as £4.00 peak, £2.80 off-peak, and Wimbledon as £5.10 peak. They don't differentiate between different stations within zones.

Ewell East (Z6) £2.80 peak, £2.10 off-peak
Cheam (Z5) £3.20 peak, £2.30 off-peak
Sutton (Z5) £3.20 peak, £2.30 off-peak
Carshalton (Z5) £3.20 peak, £2.30 off-peak
Hackbridge (Z4) £4.00 peak, £2.80 off-peak
Mitcham Junction (Z4) £4.00 peak, £2.80 off-peak
Mitcham Eastfields (Z3) £5.10 peak, £3.30 off-peak
Balham (Z3) £5.30 peak, £3.70 off-peak (routing you via Clapham Junction error)
Wandsworth Common (Z3) £5.30 peak, £3.70 off-peak (routing you via Clapham Junction error)

West Croydon (Z5) £3.20 peak, £2.30 off-peak (well at least they aren't routing you via Clapham Junction!)

We can thus build a simplified picture - imperfect as there's complexities, but:

Epsom+Z6: £2.80 peak, £2.10 off-peak
Epsom+Z5-6: £3.20 peak, £2.30 off-peak
Epsom+Z4-6: £4.00 peak, £2.80 off-peak
Epsom+Z3-6 (NR-only): £5.10 peak, £3.30 off-peak
Epsom+Z3-6 (with LU): £6.80 peak, £4.80 off-peak
Epsom+Z2-6 (NR-only): £5.30 peak, £3.70 off-peak
Epsom+Z2-6 (with LU): £7.00 peak, £5.20 off-peak
Epsom+Z1-6 (NR-only): £7.30 peak, £5.10 off-peak
Epsom+Z1-6 (with LU): £9.00 peak, £6.60 off-peak
 

JonathanH

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Vauxhall (Z1/2) £7.30 peak, £5.10 off-peak (seems to be charging Z1 fare as 'Ticket issued to: LONDON TERMINALS', which makes no sense with PAYG)
Waterloo (Z1) £7.30 peak, £5.10 off-peak

This may be because it's assuming travel via Waterloo, as there's no way of detecting whether or not you've gone that way (as you can change platform within the paid area).

Isn't it more likely to be because that is how the paper tickets are priced? Think revenue-neutral...
 

JonathanH

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Balham (Z3) £5.30 peak, £3.70 off-peak (routing you via Clapham Junction error)
Wandsworth Common (Z3) £5.30 peak, £3.70 off-peak (routing you via Clapham Junction error)

Who says that is an error? It may be the pricing manager's view of which route most people take. Again, think revenue-neutral...
 

si404

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Who says that is an error? It may be the pricing manager's view of which route most people take.
That just means it's a different kind of error to TfL's for Stoneleigh, or BRFares for Clapham High Street... ...an error of seeing what route is best. 32 minutes on the direct train, 46 minutes with a change at Clapham Junction according to National Rail Enquiries. OK, there's peak trains that allow a 43 minute journey, but it's still 11 minutes longer, and with a change!
Again, think revenue-neutral...
Charging as if people have travelled on a longer and less convenient route is not revenue-neutral, it's revenue-maximising. I think it's an error, rather than a deliberate thing.
Isn't it more likely to be because that is how the paper tickets are priced? Think revenue-neutral...
From what I gather, South Western users of Vauxhall who don't change onto the tube do so specifically because it's cheaper than Waterloo, due to being zone 2.

The only justification of it is the one given by ForTheLoveOf - that people might double back at Waterloo*. Otherwise, again, it's either an error (what I think), or revenue-maximising.

*That said, looking at the current timetable, every train from Epsom to Waterloo, and vice-versa, stops at Vauxhall, making changing at Waterloo rather silly.
 

JonathanH

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From what I gather, South Western users of Vauxhall who don't change onto the tube do so specifically because it's cheaper than Waterloo, due to being zone 2.

It is effectively only zone 2 if your journey originates in Zones 2-6 (or you have a season ticket to Zone 2). For everyone else, you need a ticket to London Terminals to alight at Vauxhall and have done for the recent past. Presumably there is a Zone 2 to Zone 9 weekly contactless cap?
 

IanD

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Charging as if people have travelled on a longer and less convenient route is not revenue-neutral, it's revenue-maximising. I think it's an error, rather than a deliberate thing.

I'd say deliberate. It happens all over the zones (eg Acton Central to Blackhorse Road defaults as via zone 1 even though that is a very complicated route compared to the 2 obvious ones avoiding Zone 1), maybe they will introduce some pink readers to alleviate it for some but if no change is required, there's not much they can do.
 

MikeWh

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Can anyone confirm whether these fares are still on the single fare finder. I'm not seeing them now.
 

JonathanH

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Can anyone confirm whether these fares are still on the single fare finder. I'm not seeing them now.

They certainly were from about 3pm but they have obviously been taken down again, perhaps because Cuffley, Bayford and Hertford North were being shown as well.
 

MikeWh

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They certainly were from about 3pm but they have obviously been taken down again, perhaps because Cuffley, Bayford and Hertford North were being shown as well.
Thanks, I was beginning to suspect a conspiracy theory against me!
 

Peter Mugridge

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That makes perfect sense (not), why would someone want to go via Clapham Junction and take over an hour when there are direct trains that take twenty five minutes, and even if you change at Sutton it only adds a few minutes on to the journey time.

Until recently there was only one direct train an hour off peak from Epsom to West Croydon, compared to four an hour to Clapham Junction. The "connection" at Sutton usually wasn't, either, with the trains from Epsom pulling in just as the one to West Croydon was pulling out.

So the routing assumption is fairly good for the previous timetable and probably simply just hasn't been updated yet - very likely because of a lack of awareness.
 

MikeWh

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Vauxhall is a SWR/SN special. If your journey is within zones 2-6 then Vauxhall is charged as zone 2, as it should be. From anywhere outside zone 6 it is priced as a London Terminal. Personally I think this is an error, or a deliberate money grab. There should be a Not via London variant which charges the same as Clapham Junction.
 

PeterC

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I'd say deliberate. It happens all over the zones (eg Acton Central to Blackhorse Road defaults as via zone 1 even though that is a very complicated route compared to the 2 obvious ones avoiding Zone 1), maybe they will introduce some pink readers to alleviate it for some but if no change is required, there's not much they can do.
Like the pink readers already provided when you change trains at Gospel Oak or Highbury and Islington?
 

IanD

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Like the pink readers already provided when you change trains at Gospel Oak or Highbury and Islington?

That was my point - pink readers are probably needed at more stations. For the journey I mentioned, you have to touch those to prove you took the logical shorter routes otherwise you're charged as if you did something like Acton Central-Gunnersbury-Victoria-Blackhorse Road or Acton Central-Willesden Junction-Oxford Circus-Blackhorse Road neither of which are logical or quick. And this is a fairly recent change. I used to do South Acton/Acton Central-Blackhorse Road quite regularly and was charged the not via Zone 1 fare whether I touched the pink readers or not. Now the single fare finder shows via Zone 1 as the default and says you have to touch the pink reader for the lower fare. This is revenue-maximisation for the unwary pay-as-you-go passenger.
 

londonbridge

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So despite being 'outside the zones', Epsom to zone 5 is charged at the same rate as a zone 6-zone 5 single! now back in tfl single fare finder.
 

si404

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Cuffley-Hertford North remains in there!

all prices in pence in a peak, off-peak format

tozone| Cuffley | Bayford |Hertford North
Z6 NR|160, 140|320, 290|340, 310
Z5 NR|270, 230|330, 310|390, 360
Z4 NR|320, 270|410, 390|450, 420
Z4 LU|490, 420|580, 540|620, 570
Z3 NR|380, 330|500, 470|650, 560
Z3 LU|550, 480|670, 620|820, 710
Z2 NR|570, 420|770, 560|790, 580
Z2 LU|740, 570|940, 710|960, 730
Z1 NR|730, 510|820, 580|820, 580

Z1 LU|970, 750|1060,820|1060,820

Note that Arsenal, Holloway Road and Caledonian Road are charged Z2 NR rate, and Kings Cross St Pancras and Barbican are charged at Z1 NR fee (Angel is Z1 LU fee). The Z2 ones seem surprising to me, the Z1 ones are a duplication of the 'London Terminals' validity from Great Northern.
 

JonathanH

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So despite being 'outside the zones', Epsom to zone 5 is charged at the same rate as a zone 6-zone 5 single! now back in tfl single fare finder.

Epsom to West Croydon is £3.20 / £2.30 but Epsom to Stoneleigh is £4.00 / £2.80?

Or so the fare finder appears to say.

BRFares has the lower fares for Epsom to Stoneleigh.
 

MikeWh

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Epsom to West Croydon is £3.20 / £2.30 but Epsom to Stoneleigh is £4.00 / £2.80?

Or so the fare finder appears to say.

BRFares has the lower fares for Epsom to Stoneleigh.
Stoneleigh appears to be a keying error in the TfL database. It's been reported.
 
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