Class 350/1 refurbishment

[Silverlinky]

The TOC wouldn't have done that; the new Aventras for use south of Northampton are to be 3+2 in basically the same layout as the East Anglia ones give or take the addition of First Class.

29 of the 45 Aventra sets will be 3+2 (class 730/1) and the other 16 will be 2+2 and dedicated to express services (class 730/2)
With the 350/1, 350/3 and 350/4 there will actually be a higher proportion of 2+2 across the company than there is at present.

 

[xc170]

I'm aware of what is happening with the 350/2 fleet, but what is the plan for the /1 and /3 fleets once the new stock arrive, remain on the west coast or move to WM local stuff?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm aware of what is happening with the 350/2 fleet, but what is the plan for the /1 and /3 fleets once the new stock arrive, remain on the west coast or move to WM local stuff?

The Trent Valley service is going to be 8.350, I believe. Don't know about the rest.

 

[DarloRich]

The /2s have very high leasing costs.

They needed lots more stock overall, more 350s weren't an option.

24m Avetnra are comparatively cheap as you have fewer cabs per 240m train.

Aventras are much more energy efficient and lower maintenance cost but you would want a minimum decent size of new fleet.

I am sure they are cheaper. It is illustrative that passenger comfort isnt a consideration

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am sure they are cheaper. It is illustrative that passenger comfort isnt a consideration

To be fair the 2+2 ones look nice and the seats are not ironing boards. I bet the build quality isn't quite Siemens, though.

 

[DarloRich]

To be fair the 2+2 ones look nice and the seats are not ironing boards. I bet the build quality isn't quite Siemens, though.

we shall see. I am certain they wont be as bomb proof as Siemens!

 

[Silverlinky]

The Trent Valley service is going to be 8.350, I believe. Don't know about the rest.

8 car 350 from May, terminating platform 7 at Crewe.
350s will still be used on the Liverpool to Birmingham services as these will run via stoke and encounter short platforms at kidsgtove, alsager and stone.
London Northwestern are also chasing new services, they have a bid in to run to Manchester from December I’m told.

 

[anamyd]

what is the issue? better than pulling a train from service because you don't have the right moquette in stock!

No issue, just found it really funny

 

[zn1]

as the 350/1 squadron is now approaching the 15 year old mark..they would be due a C3 overhaul if memory serves correctly on the historical major overhaul schedules...

they seats squabs should all be renewed, with new covers etc..a light overhaul of the interior and a repaint of the unit should be a part of this overhaul.(depends these days on who pays for it i guess)

seat covers should be changed throughout a unit, and as part of the heavy internal cleaning schedules..threadbare seating in a front line unit is unacceptable

As for the 350 squadron, i totally agree with bletchleyite...the 4 des emus are a solid built emu...good take off and braking, can happily cruise at operational line speeds..and i can kip on em without problem

i hope they stay another 15 odd years with Northampton depot...

 

[anamyd]

as the 350/1 squadron is now approaching the 15 year old mark..they would be due a C3 overhaul if memory serves correctly on the historical major overhaul schedules...

they seats squabs should all be renewed, with new covers etc..a light overhaul of the interior and a repaint of the unit should be a part of this overhaul.(depends these days on who pays for it i guess)

seat covers should be changed throughout a unit, and as part of the heavy internal cleaning schedules..threadbare seating in a front line unit is unacceptable

As for the 350 squadron, i totally agree with bletchleyite...the 4 des emus are a solid built emu...good take off and braking, can happily cruise at operational line speeds..and i can kip on em without problem

i hope they stay another 15 odd years with Northampton depot...

i thought Desiros had cheese/crud brakes (from what I heard)

 

[Energy]

Bit late but I'm going to mention that the class 350 is owned by Angel Trains apart from the /2s which are owned by Porterbrook, which are the ones which are being replaced. So their was probably a disagreement with Porterbrook leading them to replace the /2 fleet.

 

[Silverlinky]

350/2's were introduced when LM/LNW ran fewer and smaller trains. Timetable changes meant that services increased and more 12 cars appeared such was the passenger growth on the line.
When the original lease contract was made between LM and Porterbrook the terms were akin to a car purchase agreement. The costs were not too high based on normal usage, but the extra trains and coaches meant that 350/2's were used a lot more than they were intended to be used for, and the "penalties" for excess mileage were extortionate.

LNW couldn't renegotiate the contract hence the 350/2's are going as they are deemed excessively expensive to lease.

 

[6Gman]

I think it’s May when these units start going for full refurb

Good.

350/1s are fabulous units but some of them are ridiculously threadbare.

Literally.

 

[nat67]

Better than some of the thread-bare seat bases before.

The 350s are probably due for a good interior refurbishment (i.e. plug sockets, new carpets/seat covers)

(come to think of it, if the 350/1 & 3s were fitted with plug/USB sockets at every pair of seats it would be another advantage over a 390 with plug sockets only at the tables)

They also smell a bit especially when the AC comes on.

 

[anamyd]

They also smell a bit especially when the AC comes on.

what of...? can't remember the last time I used a 350/1 specifically (wouldn't surprise me if it was 2012), and the last 350/2 I used was in 2017 (haven't been on the newest ones)

 

[185]

28 Feb 2019:

Three weeks until the first mark 1 goes away for refurbishment.
New carpets, new seat covers, new PIS system, and new CCTV including external cameras to make them DCO ready.

Given that was 8 weeks ago, which was the unit that went for refurbishment 5 weeks ago?

Suspect this was speculation without basis. I heard 350/1s will be booked in from the start of the May timetable, each having roughly a three week (purely) cosmetic overhaul before returning to traffic.

 

[xc170]

They also smell a bit especially when the AC comes on.

I've noticed this too, it's not a strong smell and I don't think it's AC related, I think it's just 10+ years of dirt and grime on carpets, seats etc...

 

[BucksBones]

I think it's just 10+ years of dirt and grime on carpets, seats etc...

Definitely this; primarily the carpets. It looks horrendous too because they used too light a colour and the dirt is obvious.

To be honest, if you’re not able to regularly deep clean then I’m not sure carpet is really appropriate on trains with such heavy footfall.

 

[Techniquest]

So is it confirmed refurbishments have started?

I have to confess to rather liking the 350s too. Not a fan of a 350/2 on a Birmingham to London run though, that can be frustrating. A 350/3 with a power socket is always welcome, but I am still happy with a 350/1 though. Hard to believe they're 14 years old now (first introduction into service was early 2005 wasn't it? Or was it testing in 2004 and passenger service from December 2004?) and I still have fond memories of trying them out for the first time.

Considering the interior of the 350/1s hasn't changed since Silverlink days, it's done well. Definitely time to freshen them up now though, and installing power sockets would make them so much more useful. Even if it's USB sockets, that would be better than nothing.

Hopefully soon we'll see the first refreshed 350 and I'll get to try it out before too long. Indeed, as I type this I'm well keen to go back to London and I'm naturally choosing the LNWR route!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have to confess to rather liking the 350s too.

Other than among the door-position-prejudiced (for whom there's always the Class 444) I think they are universally liked, particularly those with 2+2 seating, but I don't think the /2s are hated either, and while they do have 3+2 seating they aren't that bad off-peak as the legroom in the facing bays is excellent and the bays are popular with families and groups - 3+2 is no issue if the middle seat passenger is a 10-year-old or something.

The Aventras certainly have a lot to live up to, particularly in terms of what is absolutely superb build quality - no rattles at all despite their age.

 

[Silverlinky]

28 Feb 2019:


Given that was 8 weeks ago, which was the unit that went for refurbishment 5 weeks ago?

Suspect this was speculation without basis. I heard 350/1s will be booked in from the start of the May timetable, each having roughly a three week (purely) cosmetic overhaul before returning to traffic.

How cosmetic is cosmetic? 350106 was the first unit that was pulled from traffic, it sat at Bletchley TMD for a number of weeks but has since returned to traffic. 350115 has now been at the same location out of traffic for a number of weeks.

I wonder whether 350403 will appear in traffic for LNW before the first fully refurbished 350/1 does......

 

[pt_mad]

Three weeks until the first mark 1 goes away for refurbishment.

New carpets, new seat covers, new PIS system, and new CCTV including external cameras to make them DCO ready.

Is there a source for the DCO cameras?

I thought the reason the 380s have cameras was due to the contoured angled nature of the class 380 Vs the straight edges of the 350? Would the cameras even get a proper view of doorways with flat sides? Sounds quite far fetched. The doors open outwards after all and don't slide into the body shell like a lot of the other flat sided camera fitted units?

 

[pt_mad]

The build quality of the 350's really shows here, if all that really needs changing is carpets and seat covers after 10 years in service on the WCML then that's pretty good going.

Perhaps some of the success of the 350 is down to how similar it seems to the well loved and established MK3 coach inside? Big curved windows, wide coaches, smooth to the point that you wouldn't know you weren't being pulled, seats not too tall (to avoid impedeing the outlook), light and airy.

 

[185]

How cosmetic is cosmetic?

Seat covers & cushions, deep clean and internal repaint, external revinyling, carpets, fitting of additional LCD infoscreens similar to 185. New lino and fitments in toilet.

Edit: I hear there may be table mounted plug sockets going in, subject to approval.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there a source for the DCO cameras?

I thought the reason the 380s have cameras was due to the contoured angled nature of the class 380 Vs the straight edges of the 350? Would the cameras even get a proper view of doorways with flat sides? Sounds quite far fetched. The doors open outwards after all and don't slide into the body shell like a lot of the other flat sided camera fitted units?

Class 700s have vertical sidewalls and cameras. All Electrostars (near enough) have plug doors and cameras. So I'm guessing it is possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps some of the success of the 350 is down to how similar it seems to the well loved and established MK3 coach inside? Big curved windows, wide coaches, smooth to the point that you wouldn't know you weren't being pulled, seats not too tall (to avoid impedeing the outlook), light and airy.

I bet a lot of its users don't even remember the Mk3 coach (these disappeared from the WCML in the mid 2000s), but yes, those features will be appreciated no doubt. It's just a well-built, solid, reliable EMU with an interior (/2s aside, but they're not that bad) that is pleasant enough to spend a couple of hours in. There is really very little wrong with it.

 

[43096]

I bet a lot of its users don't even remember the Mk3 coach (these disappeared from the WCML in the mid 2000s), but yes, those features will be appreciated no doubt. It's just a well-built, solid, reliable EMU with an interior (/2s aside, but they're not that bad) that is pleasant enough to spend a couple of hours in. There is really very little wrong with it.

The issue with the /2s is not the trains themselves, as they were built as Dusty Bin replacements (for which the interior configuration makes sense), but the inability of the TOC to diagram them correctly (which has been an issue right through Regional Railways Central, Central Trains, London Midland and no doubt carries on now).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue with the /2s is not the trains themselves, as they were built as Dusty Bin replacements (for which the interior configuration makes sense)

It doesn't, other than ticking DfT boxes for PIXC (passengers in excess of capacity). It's a primarily facing 3+2 layout, which is not a good layout for long-distance commuter services. A relatively tight 2+2 airline layout makes most sense for commuter services - good standing space and almost everyone travelling alone so not wanting to play kneesie with other passengers. (Much as I don't like pushing my knees against the back of the seat in front, I prefer it to pushing them against another person). The Class 319/4 layout is one example of such an "ideal" commuter layout (much as my vote goes for the lovely /2s).

Perhaps bizarrely, the /2s work best on off peak and weekend services on the long distance runs, where the bays of 6 are prized by families and groups of friends who don't mind being pushed against people they know in order to get a seat, or where a child can occupy the middle.

 

[hwl]

It doesn't, other than ticking DfT boxes for PIXC (passengers in excess of capacity). It's a primarily facing 3+2 layout, which is not a good layout for long-distance commuter services. A relatively tight 2+2 airline layout makes most sense for commuter services - good standing space and almost everyone travelling alone so not wanting to play kneesie with other passengers. (Much as I don't like pushing my knees against the back of the seat in front, I prefer it to pushing them against another person). The Class 319/4 layout is one example of such an "ideal" commuter layout (much as my vote goes for the lovely /2s).

Perhaps bizarrely, the /2s work best on off peak and weekend services on the long distance runs, where the bays of 6 are prized by families and groups of friends who don't mind being pushed against people they know in order to get a seat, or where a child can occupy the middle.

The /2s were ordered before DfT saw the light on how to improve commuter capacity and went for 2+2 airline on the 377/6.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The /2s were ordered before DfT saw the light on how to improve commuter capacity and went for 2+2 airline on the 377/6.

Though sadly the light has been unseen and the south WCML Aventras will be 3+2, albeit with quite nice seats and seat back tables (the omission of which are the main issue with the /2s).

At least the poor diagramming will end up with them on more suitable services, no doubt, as it were.