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Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

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Stopper

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Are you saying that commuters are more important than leisure users? Remember that leisure users don't have to use the train. They help fill in the daytime services between the peaks. If they didn't, commuter season tickets in the peaks would be more expensive than they are. If it isn't to their liking, there is always the cheaper coach.

There are far more commuters than leisure users, is what I’m saying. The overcrowding and capacity issues are always in commuter peak times, not during the day.
 

GrimShady

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First class on pure commuter trains is rarely that different to standard. The 170s needed a proper first class section because they could be used for the Inverness/Aberdeen runs as well as the E&G. Since the 385s will be restricted to commuter operations only, it doesn't make sense fitting expensive first class seating. The benefit of first class on commuter trains is the privacy and greater guarantee of a seat to do business on a laptop rather than actual luxury.

It makes perfect sense. I pay a first class fare and expect a first class seat. Have they dropped the price to reflect the downgrade? No they haven't.

There are all kind of complaints in first every time i'm on the trains about the seats, it is simply not acceptable.

They could have at least fitted half decent padding, but yet again for the modern age, another half arsed job!
 

GusB

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It makes perfect sense. I pay a first class fare and expect a first class seat. Have they dropped the price to reflect the downgrade? No they haven't.

There are all kind of complaints in first every time i'm on the trains about the seats, it is simply not acceptable.

They could have at least fitted half decent padding, but yet again for the modern age, another half arsed job!
Why not save yourself the disappointment and a bit of money by just buying a standard class ticket - if there's not much to differentiate then what's the point? It was pointed out upthread that perhaps the only advantage is having a table if you need to do a bit of work. It's a commuter train, on a commuter service which is less than an hour from end-to-end. I'd question the need to have any first class provision at all.
 

delt1c

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Why not save yourself the disappointment and a bit of money by just buying a standard class ticket - if there's not much to differentiate then what's the point? It was pointed out upthread that perhaps the only advantage is having a table if you need to do a bit of work. It's a commuter train, on a commuter service which is less than an hour from end-to-end. I'd question the need to have any first class provision at all.
I would agree that on services of less than 1 hour it should be 1 class. However if the service has 1st class and passengers are paying a premium for it then the least they can expect is a more spacious and comfortable seat. Even in 1st Gen DMU's where standard was 3+2 , 1st was 2+2 ( and even on some suburban units 2+1)
 

InOban

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I always understood that the first class was for advocates (= barristers) travelling between their chambers in Edinburgh and the High Court in Glasgow. Hasn't First been largely eliminated in the London area for journeys of this duration? Certainly when the full eight coach service starts in the autumn I can see no reason for having two First sections.
 

68000

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Got a 385 from Larbert to Queen Street yesterday and it was fine, a 158 to Larbert in the morning
 

Journeyman

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I always understood that the first class was for advocates (= barristers) travelling between their chambers in Edinburgh and the High Court in Glasgow. Hasn't First been largely eliminated in the London area for journeys of this duration? Certainly when the full eight coach service starts in the autumn I can see no reason for having two First sections.

It seems a bit much - the extra vehicle will add only 20 additional Standard Class seats, and will have two largely empty first class sections.
 

Journeyman

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Agreed, sat in First Class (declassified) from Stirling to Glasgow (ex Alloa) the other day...thought the FC seats were a tad "firm".

They certainly are. I thought FC was alright from a design, space and appearance perspective, but it certainly wasn't very comfortable, and I'm not at all inclined to pay for it (I too used it on a declassified service, via Cumbernauld).
 

alangla

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I always understood that the first class was for advocates (= barristers) travelling between their chambers in Edinburgh and the High Court in Glasgow. Hasn't First been largely eliminated in the London area for journeys of this duration? Certainly when the full eight coach service starts in the autumn I can see no reason for having two First sections.
I thought it was also for separating MSPs from Glasgow area constituencies from the peasants who fund them!
Having commuted on the E&G during the late 170 era, I second the comments about priorities, it’s 100% about capacity, they could have fitted wooden benches & it would be acceptable if most people got a seat. The peak services are incredibly busy and (excluding the flexipass scammers, my pet peeve) it’s the commuters paying peak fares that are paying the bills.
Interesting comments about taking the bus - Citylink is significantly cheaper, especially in the peaks and does seem to do decent business on the 900 service, enough to make it worth running extras that go fast from Princes St to Glasgow.
 

kidman123

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When I go somewhere it mostly as a lesure passenger. Even then I don't actually mind the 385 seating there comfortable and firm enough for a Glasgow Edinburgh train.

It could be worse it might be seats like commuter buses ( not coach) what are hard and uncomfortable.

As for commuter first class all it is it's for people who wants peice and quiet for work at a table with a laptop and a coffee without destractions with folk standing over you.

On 170 as said the seats are a bit more comfortable as they have been used as Edinburgh Glasgow to Inverness and Aberdeen.
 

boabt

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I thought it was also for separating MSPs from Glasgow area constituencies from the peasants who fund them!

I've seen over a dozen MSPs on the train in recent years. None of them have been daft enough to be caught sitting First Class.
 

GrimShady

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Why not save yourself the disappointment and a bit of money by just buying a standard class ticket - if there's not much to differentiate then what's the point? It was pointed out upthread that perhaps the only advantage is having a table if you need to do a bit of work. It's a commuter train, on a commuter service which is less than an hour from end-to-end. I'd question the need to have any first class provision at all.

The point is those who use it expect a better seat. I've traveled on 158s/155s with Northern from Leeds - York that have better seating in Standard! It's a totally artificial situation created by ScotRail and Hitachi. First has always been a feature of E&G and has been part of the franchise commitments since privatisation started.

Is there any need for a trolley service on such a "commuter" service?

Its baffling how other operators such as TPE, also regarded as "commuter" services and seriously overcrowded, can still have very, very good First.

It's not just ScotRail, standard all over the railway with regard to passenger comfort have fallen drastically. What's the excuse for the Class 800s, is Edinburgh Kings Cross now a commuter service? How about a "commuter" service to Mallaig?

I haven't yet heard a valid excuse for crap seats, they went to the bother of designing a FC area and popped in any old junk hoping to sell substandard rubbish at a premium. Its all down to sheer laziness and profiteering.

I'm not having a go at you GusB just my frustrations with a ridiculous situation.
 
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snookertam

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Historically there has been first class available on this service between Glasgow and Edinburgh (as opposed to the other routes) as it is seen as an 'Intercity' service. Now I know there's differing definitions of what an intercity service is but given that it is the principal rail service between the two main cities in the country, then there is still an expectation that the comfort available in the trains will be of a certain standard. I've seen people refer to it as just a commuter service but I think it is a bit more than that. The Cathcart Circle is a commuter service, The North Electrics are a commuter service, the main rail service between Edinburgh and Glasgow is sustained more than just commuters.

I haven't been in a 385 yet but from what others are saying they appear to be a step down in comfort from even the 170s, whose interior seemed ideal for the service. Passengers get used to a certain level of service when they use these trains and where you reduce that service there will be some grumbles. There are other advantages of course - near enough every train is formed of 7 cars all day - but given the level of commuter and business travel between the two cities on this route, then it's not unreasonable to expect a certain level of comfort and spaciousness to be able to get some work done for example. Let not underestimate the level of daytime travel over the route which is work related - many people working in either city have to travel through to offices in the other, travel that is usually arranged by their employer.
 

Steven_G

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With the 365's apparently withdrawing next weekend, looks like it's now about just quantity on the routes. 385's and HST's.

Is that the 385's operating in some form on all their planned routes now with 170's filling the gaps?
 

Southsider

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With the 365's apparently withdrawing next weekend, looks like it's now about just quantity on the routes. 385's and HST's.

Is that the 385's operating in some form on all their planned routes now with 170's filling the gaps?
They’re planned to do Shotts in the near future.
 
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I'm amazed to find out that there will be two first class sections on the 8 car E&G services. Surely these will never be fully utilised? What a tremendous waste of space. I've been on a number of peak services heading in Edinburgh and have not got a seat, and there are loads of people standing across the 7 cars. 20 more seats when the 8th car is added will do little to change this, meaning my journey essentially hasn't changed at all (other than being a few minutes faster) - I'm still paying for the privilege of standing for the duration.
 

Highlandspring

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20 more seats when the 8th car is added will do little to change this, meaning my journey essentially hasn't changed at all (other than being a few minutes faster) - I'm still paying for the privilege of standing for the duration.
You could always buy a first class ticket..?
 

Journeyman

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I'm surprised about the number of people saying they have to stand on the E&G. I commute from Linlithgow to Glasgow daily in the peaks, and I can't remember the last time I had to stand. It's possibly years ago.
 

kilonewton

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I'm surprised about the number of people saying they have to stand on the E&G. I commute from Linlithgow to Glasgow daily in the peaks, and I can't remember the last time I had to stand. It's possibly years ago.
I’ve had to stand into Edinburgh, usually as I choose to be in the coach closest to the exit at Waverley / Haymarket depending on where I need to be that morning. Other way into Glasgow, for instance this morning in my coach there were quite a few standing after Croy, despite there being two spare seats at the table I was sitting at. Quite a few choose to stand for what is probably a relatively short journey to an office where they’re sat down most of the day anyway.
The annoying thing about 385s on E-G is the seemingly randomness of the placement of the first class section. Could be at the front, middle or back. About 25% of the time it’s where I want to be in povo class. Doesn’t bother me too much, but if I were paying for first class from an intermediate station, it would.
 

Stopper

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I'm surprised about the number of people saying they have to stand on the E&G. I commute from Linlithgow to Glasgow daily in the peaks, and I can't remember the last time I had to stand. It's possibly years ago.

Because you are travelling to Glasgow and are getting on at the first intermediate stop, you are lucky. The busiest section of the E&G is the Linlithgow-Edinburgh section, it has been full & standing for years and mostly still is.
 

Journeyman

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The annoying thing about 385s on E-G is the seemingly randomness of the placement of the first class section. Could be at the front, middle or back. About 25% of the time it’s where I want to be in povo class. Doesn’t bother me too much, but if I were paying for first class from an intermediate station, it would.

This is true, it's very inconsistent, and thus far ScotRail have made no attempt to announce where it is, which would be very useful.
 
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You could always buy a first class ticket..?
Lol, excellent banter there Highlandspring :lol:

I'm surprised about the number of people saying they have to stand on the E&G. I commute from Linlithgow to Glasgow daily in the peaks, and I can't remember the last time I had to stand. It's possibly years ago.
Depending on the time you commute at, have a look at the Edinburgh bound train as it leaves Linlithgow. At peak there will be standing passengers at every door area.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Regarding the position of First Class in relation to the train's formation, would it be possible for it as a general rule of thumb to be facing in the Edinburgh direction?

On the traditional Intercity trains in the UK, it has been a long standing practice of the First Class section facing in the London direction.
 

absolutelymilk

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Depending on the time you commute at, have a look at the Edinburgh bound train as it leaves Linlithgow. At peak there will be standing passengers at every door area.
It's a fifteen minute journey to Edinburgh from Linlithgow. Are there many people standing before Linlithgow?

20 more seats when the 8th car is added will do little to change this, meaning my journey essentially hasn't changed at all (other than
being a few minutes faster) - I'm still paying for the privilege of standing for the duration.
Where did you get the 20 more seats figure from? According to this article, there will be an extra 67 seats on the four-car compared to the three-car.
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2017/11/01/building-scotrails-385s/
 

Highlandspring

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Regarding the position of First Class in relation to the train's formation, would it be possible for it as a general rule of thumb to be facing in the Edinburgh direction?
That was going to be done until it was realised that there is a diagram which turns the sets.
 

gsnedders

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That was going to be done until it was realised that there is a diagram which turns the sets.
Presumably running Edinburgh–Dunblane–Glasgow or something similar? Once we have 8 car E–G, are we expecting to have trains regularly turning?
 
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