March 2019 Oyster Extensions Confirmed

[JonathanH]

A bit of a mess by the looks of it then. Railcard holders will continue to need to purchase paper tickets. I hope advertising at the station makes it very clear that contactless might not be the cheapest way.

In many cases off peak travel will be cheaper with paper tickets, especially at weekends where Super Off Peak tickets are available.

Although I'm generally in favour of extending Oyster/contactless I have a real fear that this is going to result in a huge price increase for off peak travellers vis the back door. This has already happened at Epsom, as I understand it.

It made off peak travel more expensive for people in London as well (capped on the basis people only want to travel into central London) but they got rid of the cheap paper tickets so people had no choice.

From a train operator perspective, one of the primary attractions of the TfL fare structure on commuter routes is the opportunity to charge peak fares in the evening peak and the removal of break of journey.

Biting the bullet and removing the paper fare structure on some of the routes which have already seen extension of Oyster might focus the minds of travellers when they see fares go up.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Presumably there's no schedule yet for the introduction of Oyster and contactless to stations beyond West Drayton towards Reading.

When it does happen, it would be a signal that Crossrail/Elizabeth is approaching completion.

 

[mattdickinson]

Presumably there's no schedule yet for the introduction of Oyster and contactless to stations beyond West Drayton towards Reading.

When it does happen, it would be a signal that Crossrail/Elizabeth is approaching completion.

TfL have apparently requested to take over the line from December independent of any opening date for the Elizabeth line.

 

[infobleep]

SWR would have to pay for it and there's little to no incentive for them to do so. The best hope is the co-ordinated expansion of PAYG currently being consulted on by the DfT.

The weekly cap is only mentioned for the benefit of contactless users, as with the Redhill/Gatwick extension. The advice is to use traditional season tickets if you commute 5 days a week.

Given it was in the GTR franchise agreement to introduce it, I wonder why they didn't put something in the SWR franchise agreement?

 

[swt_passenger]

Given it was in the GTR franchise agreement to introduce it, I wonder why they didn't put something in the SWR franchise agreement?

Probably because GTR are the station facility operator and presumably in charge of modifying the gatelines for Oyster PAYG. Not really much for SWR to do if they’re happy with the fares being revenue neutral.

 

[VT 390]

Presumably there's no schedule yet for the introduction of Oyster and contactless to stations beyond West Drayton towards Reading.

When it does happen, it would be a signal that Crossrail/Elizabeth is approaching completion.

Will there be contactless and Oyster at Reading?
How will it know if you use Crossrail or a fast GWR service to Paddington as I would have thought that the Crossrail option will be cheaper otherwise no one would use it to go from Reading to London would they?

 

[mattdickinson]

Will there be contactless and Oyster at Reading?
How will it know if you use Crossrail or a fast GWR service to Paddington as I would have thought that the Crossrail option will be cheaper otherwise no one would use it to go from Reading to London would they?

Theoretically different fares could be charged at the Paddington platforms 2-5 gateline.

 

[Deerfold]

Will there be contactless and Oyster at Reading?
How will it know if you use Crossrail or a fast GWR service to Paddington as I would have thought that the Crossrail option will be cheaper otherwise no one would use it to go from Reading to London would they?

Are they aiming for people to use it between Reading and London? There's stoppers at the moment. They're the same price for walk-up travel as the fast trains. But people may go Reading to Burnham - or they may decide they can put up with being in London slower if they save a change at Paddington.

 

[MikeWh]

Will there be contactless and Oyster at Reading?
How will it know if you use Crossrail or a fast GWR service to Paddington as I would have thought that the Crossrail option will be cheaper otherwise no one would use it to go from Reading to London would they?

Yes there will be contactless and Oyster at Reading. TfL won't run a service if it can't be paid for in that way.
It's the same at Shenfield, either use the slow TfL Rail or the fast GA to Stratford and Liverpool Street. Same fares.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes there will be contactless and Oyster at Reading. TfL won't run a service if it can't be paid for in that way.
It's the same at Shenfield, either use the slow TfL Rail or the fast GA to Stratford and Liverpool Street. Same fares.

Well, though it's a reasonable analogy, Reading is 36 miles out of London - nearly twice the 20 miles that Shenfield is.

 

[kevin_roche]

Since for fare calculations Reading and Reading West are regarded as the same. I wonder if there will be contactless and Oyster at Reading west too. Anyone know?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Since for fare calculations Reading and Reading West are regarded as the same. I wonder if there will be contactless and Oyster at Reading west too. Anyone know?

I don't think that's intended. It will be no different to any other station where this already applies now (or will do upon the extension of Oyster). For example, Hertford North doesn't yet accept Oyster/contactless, despite most fares being the same, or almost the same, from both Hertford stations (or indeed from the Hertford Stations group).

It's difficult to set a boundary when stations are very close to each other, without annoying some people. It's only when there is a natural 'gap', such as between Bedwyn and Pewsey, that it is less liable to be complained about.

 

[si404]

The PAYG consultation has Reading West in the expansion programme. Given the barrier to expansion of Oyster/PAYG to Reading West is low, I'd suggest that it is one of the more likely expansions proposed there.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The PAYG consultation has Reading West in the expansion programme. Given the barrier to expansion of Oyster/PAYG to Reading West is low, I'd suggest that it is one of the more likely expansions proposed there.

The very document you've linked to shows Reading West as being outside the "proposed PAYG area"!

 

[adrock1976]

I don't think that's intended. It will be no different to any other station where this already applies now (or will do upon the extension of Oyster). For example, Hertford North doesn't yet accept Oyster/contactless, despite most fares being the same, or almost the same, from both Hertford stations (or indeed from the Hertford Stations group).

It's difficult to set a boundary when stations are very close to each other, without annoying some people. It's only when there is a natural 'gap', such as between Bedwyn and Pewsey, that it is less liable to be complained about.

Although this is a sideways comment in relation to the main topic, if my memory is not playing tricks on me, I seem to remember that Bedwyn was as far as Network SouthEast stretched, with Pewsey onwards falling under Regional Railways Wales & West.

Perhaps somebody local to that area could confirm?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Although this is a sideways comment in relation to the main topic, if my memory is not playing tricks on me, I seem to remember that Bedwyn was as far as Network SouthEast stretched, with Pewsey onwards falling under Regional Railways Wales & West.

Perhaps somebody local to that area could confirm?

That is indeed the case, and though from a geographical standpoint Pewsey might have been more justifiable than Bedwyn in terms of a boundary station (the gap from Pewsey to Westbury being a more reasonable distance to set as a boundary, at 20 miles vs 8 miles apart, unfortunately Bedwyn was chosen, and I doubt that will ever change! The Network Railcard map still shows the boundary of what was considered NSE territory (though of course NSE did operate outside their 'patch', most notably to Peterborough and, I believe, Ipswich).

 

[si404]

The very document you've linked to shows Reading West as being outside the "proposed PAYG area"!

Yes - on the small scale maps, and the text only refers to 'Reading'. However, the detailed maps at the end have it on there.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes - on the small scale maps, and the text only refers to 'Reading'. However, the detailed maps at the end have it on there.

Well, the fact that the dot which represents Reading West is also shown as outside the PAYG area doesn't exactly help. They seem to be rather confused!

 

[kevin_roche]

The PAYG consultation has Reading West in the expansion programme. Given the barrier to expansion of Oyster/PAYG to Reading West is low, I'd suggest that it is one of the more likely expansions proposed there.

Thanks for posting the link to that document. Its a shame the link in the document to enter an online response does not work.

 

[LK717]

Been having a look at oyster fares from Hertford North and it looks like they have changed a little bit since the single fare finder first included HFN and it looks like some paper tickets are changing ever so slightly.
For example a single on oyster from Hertford north to palmers green is £4.50 at peak. So for a return, £9. Currently from the ticket machine a paper ticket return is £8.50, however if you check the GN website it’s now gone up to £9

And in regards to an off peak travel card, using NR card as an example it’s currently £12.35 soon to be raised to £12.40 to be in line with oyster capping.

Also worth noting a single to Moorgate has changed from £8.50 to £8.20.

(Sorry for the switching between normal fares and railcard fares! Just as I got a travel card today I know the prices!)

It is now also 10p cheaper for a return from Hertford north to ally pally.

I feel like there will be a few more changes over the next couple of weeks.

Though kind of sneaky of GN to raise their fares in some cases to match oyster...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Been having a look at oyster fares from Hertford North and it looks like they have changed a little bit since the single fare finder first included HFN and it looks like some paper tickets are changing ever so slightly.
For example a single on oyster from Hertford north to palmers green is £4.50 at peak. So for a return, £9. Currently from the ticket machine a paper ticket return is £8.50, however if you check the GN website it’s now gone up to £9

And in regards to an off peak travel card, using NR card as an example it’s currently £12.35 soon to be raised to £12.40 to be in line with oyster capping.

Also worth noting a single to Moorgate has changed from £8.50 to £8.20.

(Sorry for the switching between normal fares and railcard fares! Just as I got a travel card today I know the prices!)

It is now also 10p cheaper for a return from Hertford north to ally pally.

I feel like there will be a few more changes over the next couple of weeks.

Though kind of sneaky of GN to raise their fares in some cases to match oyster...

I have Avantix, which is effectively a cached version of the fares database. I can't see most of these increases. The Anytime Day Return from Hertford North (HFN) to Palmers Green (PAL) was £9.00 at the beginning of this year, and it was £8.80 last year. So I'm not sure where you're getting £8.50 from.

 

[LK717]

I have Avantix, which is effectively a cached version of the fares database. I can't see most of these increases. The Anytime Day Return from Hertford North (HFN) to Palmers Green (PAL) was £9.00 at the beginning of this year, and it was £8.80 last year. So I'm not sure where you're getting £8.50 from.

Looks like this was a mistake on my part... The ticket I was shown was palmers green to hfn... not the other way round. Though raises a question of why it costs 50p more to go in a different direction?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Looks like this was a mistake on my part... The ticket I was shown was palmers green to hfn... not the other way round. Though raises a question of why it costs 50p more to go in a different direction?

Directional peak pricing. It's a relatively common thing on London commuter routes, originally having been introduced by Network SouthEast I believe, and having been 'frozen' into the fare structure through the limited fare increases. For example, Exeter to London via Honiton Anytime Day Return costs £135.90 in that direction, but just £87.70 in the other direction (away from London).

 

[mattdickinson]

SWR would have to pay for it and there's little to no incentive for them to do so. The best hope is the co-ordinated expansion of PAYG currently being consulted on by the DfT.

.

SWR have a franchise obligation (page 380)to introduce their own PAYG offer (Tap2Go) by the end of 2018 (which didn't happen) to

Winsdor & Eton Riverside to Feltham; Shepperton to Hampton;
Cobham & Stoke D’Abernon and Weybridge to Surbiton

 

[jon0844]

Been told that Oyster only gets as far as Potters Bar, which becomes part of the zonal system and sorts out the anomaly of it being Oyster/CPC for buses but not trains.

Brookmans Park to Welwyn Garden City will be contactless cards only?

 

[Mojo]

but due to a TFL promo I see in Metro (see picture) will be £1.50 this winter.

That isn't a "promo." £1.50 is the standard Off-peak fare for TfL services in Zones 2-6 [except TfL Rail and Overground services to/from Liverpool St]. It doesn't apply to most National Rail services, including the ones on your route.

 

[Aictos]

Been told that Oyster only gets as far as Potters Bar, which becomes part of the zonal system and sorts out the anomaly of it being Oyster/CPC for buses but not trains.

Brookmans Park to Welwyn Garden City will be contactless cards only?

That doesn't make sense though, Oyster has been stated it's coming to Welwyn Garden City so are they now back tracking on what's been said and confirmed publicly?

A bigger issue is Hertford North and what zone it will come under because Hertford East comes under Zone B so you would think that Hertford North would also come under Zone B?

Also as you have Hertford Stations tickets it makes sense for both Hertford stations to be in the same Oyster Zone would it not?

Cuffley and Bayford could come under Zone 7 which would leave what zones would Brookmans Park to Welwyn Garden City come under?

 

[si404]

A bigger issue is Hertford North and what zone it will come under because Hertford East comes under Zone B so you would think that Hertford North would also come under Zone B?
...
Cuffley and Bayford could come under Zone 7

Hertford North is zone B, as is Bayford. Cuffley zone 9. (source - bottom of page 3)

Fares are (or were, when I got them off the single fare finder last month):

all prices in pence in a peak, off-peak format

tozone| Cuffley | Bayford |Hertford North
Z6 NR|160, 140|320, 290|340, 310
Z5 NR|270, 230|330, 310|390, 360
Z4 NR|320, 270|410, 390|450, 420
Z4 LU|490, 420|580, 540|620, 570
Z3 NR|380, 330|500, 470|650, 560
Z3 LU|550, 480|670, 620|820, 710
Z2 NR|570, 420|770, 560|790, 580
Z2 LU|740, 570|940, 710|960, 730
Z1 NR|730, 510|820, 580|820, 580
Z1 LU|970, 750|1060,820|1060,820

Note that Bayford is slightly cheaper than Hertford North for some, despite being in the same zone. The fares are also not the same as Greater Anglia's Zone B fares.

 

[jon0844]

That document confirms contactless only (no Oyster) at certain stations.

 

[A Challenge]

That document confirms contactless only (no Oyster) at certain stations.

It feels like that is a way to stop people railcard discounts on the extensions!