Scottish Labour: free bus travel for everyone

[David M]

It must have proven popular in Labour controlled Wales or they wouldn't be proposing to introduce it in Scotland as well.
Oh wait, it's Labour.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

This is a non starter, you can tell that Labour are only doing it to target the gullible young who'll think that everything should be free apart from speech.

 

[matt_world2004]

Well, quite simply London offers free travel to a much wider range of people and with fewer restrictions than compared to most places.

• ENCTS pass holders can travel free, at any time
• Wheelchair users can travel free, at any time
• Londoners aged 60+ can travel free, at any time (if they hold a 60+ Oyster card)
• All children under 11 can travel free, at any time
• All children aged 11-16 can travel free, at any time (if they hold a Zip card)
• Londoners aged 16-18 in education can travel free, at any time (if they hold a Zip card)
• Some Londoners who are armed forces veterans can travel free, at any time (if they hold a Veterans Oyster card)
• School parties can travel free, at any time (if they register)

Yet concessionary travel accounts for 30% if trips in London compared to 50% plus elsewhere.

 

[telstarbox]

This is a non starter, you can tell that Labour are only doing it to target the gullible young who'll think that everything should be free apart from speech.

What does this mean?

 

[radamfi]

Yet concessionary travel accounts for 30% if trips in London compared to 50% plus elsewhere.

Because bus travel is accepted as a normal mode of transport in London by most people, whereas outside London most people only use buses because they have no choice.

 

[matt_world2004]

Because bus travel is accepted as a normal mode of transport in London by most people, whereas outside London most people only use buses because they have no choice.

This doesn't seem like a bad thing within London.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

What does this mean?

In my view it means Labour haven't thought this through. It raises the questions of who's going to pay for it? How's it going to be funded? What's Labour's back up plan if this flops?

Furthermore as with the free university tution thing a couple of years back, a load of under 25's ended up voting Labour simply because they were promising something that resembled a carrot on a stick and the U25's bought the bait. Yet, what most of them want is free this that and the other apart from free speech as someone has hurt their feelings by saying something that they disagree with / challenges their views. Its also obvious that free speech is dead in most universities, say one thing and out comes the box of cliched terms.

There's also the risk that many routes would be cut and even the operating day could be shortened e.g. 7am to 7pm to make the project sustainable.

 

[Busaholic]

Yet concessionary travel accounts for 30% if trips in London compared to 50% plus elsewhere.

Small point, but ENCTS passholders are not recorded in London, so no-one knows how many journeys they make.

 

[matt_world2004]

Small point, but ENCTS passholders are not recorded in London, so no-one knows how many journeys they make.

They are supposed to be.

 

[transmanche]

Small point, but ENCTS passholders are not recorded in London, so no-one knows how many journeys they make.

I know that originally TfL Bus Oyster readers could not read ITSO cards (such as ENCTS cards), but I thought they were upgraded a few years back (as were the tube ticket gates). In any event, surely drivers can manually record ENCTS card usage on their ticket machine?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know that originally TfL Bus Oyster readers could not read ITSO cards (such as ENCTS cards), but I thought they were upgraded a few years back (as were the tube ticket gates). In any event, surely drivers can manually record ENCTS card usage on their ticket machine?

It might be that they can, but London bus drivers still seem to have a "that's the conductor's job" mentality so I doubt it's often done.

 

[AndrewE]

Does anyone think this might be relevant?
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ling-near-schools-say-uk-public-health-chiefs

Prof Paul Cosford, the director for health protection and medical director of PHE, told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “I’m a doctor, I see a figure of 35,000 to 40,000 people each year dying as a result of the harm that is caused by air pollution.”
Calling for more urgency, he said: “If we were having a conversation about 30,000 people dying each year because of a polluted water supply, I think we would have a very different conversation. It would be about: ‘what do we need to do now and how quickly can we do it?’”

The BBC page https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47520848 also says

It describes air pollution as the biggest environmental threat to health in the UK and says there is strong evidence that air pollution causes the development of coronary heart disease, stroke, respiratory disease and lung cancer, and exacerbates asthma.
Although England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales lead on air quality policy in their own territories, PHE contributes to the implementation of the government's UK-wide strategy.
Professor Cosford told BBC Radio 5 Live conversations needed to be had between local authorities, schools and parents about how to "stop the emissions at source".
The PHE review also recommendsRedesigning cities so people aren't so close to highly polluting roads by, for example, designing wider streets or using hedges to screen against pollutants

• Investing more in clean public transport as well as foot and cycle paths

I'm sure one of the news reports I heard this morning (R4?) also said that it recommends that subsidies for public transport should be increased to ensure greater use...

 

[alex397]

In my view it means Labour haven't thought this through. It raises the questions of who's going to pay for it? How's it going to be funded? What's Labour's back up plan if this flops?

Furthermore as with the free university tution thing a couple of years back, a load of under 25's ended up voting Labour simply because they were promising something that resembled a carrot on a stick and the U25's bought the bait. Yet, what most of them want is free this that and the other apart from free speech as someone has hurt their feelings by saying something that they disagree with / challenges their views. Its also obvious that free speech is dead in most universities, say one thing and out comes the box of cliched terms.

There's also the risk that many routes would be cut and even the operating day could be shortened e.g. 7am to 7pm to make the project sustainable.

Any more generalisations you'd like to make? Using that logic, we could also say that elderly people all expect something for nothing, such as the free bus pass and all the other discounts which politicians use to get votes.

They are supposed to be.

In my experience on using my disabled ENCTS pass, most drivers just wave me on and don't seem to do anything to the ticket machine. Quite a few drivers don't have a clue what it is, and question what i'm doing, eventually giving up arguing or refusing to let me on.

I know that originally TfL Bus Oyster readers could not read ITSO cards (such as ENCTS cards), but I thought they were upgraded a few years back (as were the tube ticket gates). In any event, surely drivers can manually record ENCTS card usage on their ticket machine?

As far as I know, ENCTS passes are still not compatible with TfL ticket machines. As soon as they are compatible, it will hopefully much reduce drivers confusion over them.

----

I like the idea of free travel - it will make the idea of travelling by bus more attractive, and help reduce pollution and congestion. But it will only work if properly funded, which it is highly unlikely to be, just like the ENCTS passes.

Tallinn is much smaller than Scotland (and so is Luxembourg), and its not free for non-Tallinn residents or visitors. It would be interesting to know how the free travel in Tallinn is funded as i'm not sure myself.

 

[radamfi]

Does anyone think this might be relevant?
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ling-near-schools-say-uk-public-health-chiefs

The BBC page https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47520848 also says

I'm sure one of the news reports I heard this morning (R4?) also said that it recommends that subsidies for public transport should be increased to ensure greater use...

How would subsidy be used in a deregulated system? Increasing BSOG would probably lead to more on road competition. As we found out in the 80s, competing bus services doesn't turn into more passengers. Improved subsidised services would only help evening and Sunday services as the majority of weekday daytime buses are commercial.

 

[alangla]

Idiotic idea. Personally, given the shortages in the existing system and nonsenses like once a week “services” from places like Dundee to Largs stopping just enough to be a local service (I.e. a free day out for pensioners), I’d rather the free pass was ended & replaced with something like a 90-95% discount for pass holders. In Glasgow, that would mean citywide travel for something like 24p, which doesn’t seem unreasonable. Single to Aberdeen would be around £3.30. Thoughts?

 

[AndrewE]

How would subsidy be used in a deregulated system? Increasing BSOG would probably lead to more on road competition. As we found out in the 80s, competing bus services doesn't turn into more passengers. Improved subsidised services would only help evening and Sunday services as the majority of weekday daytime buses are commercial.

Perhaps it's the deregulated system itself that is incompatible with public health and pollution reduction objectives...

 

[radamfi]

Perhaps it's the deregulated system itself that is incompatible with public health and pollution reduction objectives...

A lot of people on this forum, maybe the majority, prefer deregulation, even if it results in reduced passenger numbers over alternatives.

 

[matt_world2004]

Any more generalisations you'd like to make? Using that logic, we could also say that elderly people all expect something for nothing, such as the free bus pass and all the other discounts which politicians use to get votes.



In my experience on using my disabled ENCTS pass, most drivers just wave me on and don't seem to do anything to the ticket machine. Quite a few drivers don't have a clue what it is, and question what i'm doing, eventually giving up arguing or refusing to let me on.



As far as I know, ENCTS passes are still not compatible with TfL ticket machines. As soon as they are compatible, it will hopefully much reduce drivers confusion over them.

The majority of ENCTS passes are freedom passes which are compatible with the machine. Drivers have been instructed to push a button on the machine that records ENCTS entry (Wheelchair symbol on it) This is particularly important when the bus crosses the greater London boundary as revenue is attributed to it. TfL receive 88p per ENCTS/Freedom pass trip on a bus. In comparison they only receive about 0.65 p per Travelcard. This is due to revenue attribution for Travelcards being done on a per mile basis which disadvantages buses.

 

[AndrewE]

A lot of people on this forum, maybe the majority, prefer deregulation, even if it results in reduced passenger numbers over alternatives.

The triumph of dogma over reality/experience yet again!
How do they think we are going to achieve a modal shift and reduce congestion, pollution and ill-health then? Please don't let them trot out any more self-driving electric car crap...

 

[radamfi]

The triumph of dogma over reality/experience yet again!
How do they think we are going to achieve a modal shift and reduce congestion, pollution and ill-health then? Please don't let them trot out any more self-driving electric car crap...

They don't care. They think deregulation must be kept at all costs.

 

[gazthomas]

Barking mad. They can fund my mortgage too if they'd like!

 

[Busaholic]

It might be that they can, but London bus drivers still seem to have a "that's the conductor's job" mentality so I doubt it's often done.

I can only report my personal experience, which is that most drivers just nod or totally ignore the showing of a pass: some do press some sort of button but I'm not sure this records an ENCTS specifically. In any case, if you board an nbfl through centre/rear doors there's no chance of a record, or on the electric 507 or 521 buses either.

 

[alex397]

The majority of ENCTS passes are freedom passes which are compatible with the machine. Drivers have been instructed to push a button on the machine that records ENCTS entry (Wheelchair symbol on it) This is particularly important when the bus crosses the greater London boundary as revenue is attributed to it. TfL receive 88p per ENCTS/Freedom pass trip on a bus. In comparison they only receive about 0.65 p per Travelcard. This is due to revenue attribution for Travelcards being done on a per mile basis which disadvantages buses.

Indeed, the TfL-issued Freedom Passes are their equivalent of the ENCTS pass, and are compatible with the Oyster reader. With the ENCTS passes, by 'not compatible' I meant that the ENCTS passes cannot be scanned on the Oyster reader, but are meant to be accepted by the button on the ticket machine you mention.
Interesting info about the revenue TfL receive for accepting passes - thanks for that!

 

[Mwanesh]

Labour’s plans are a stunt and unworkable without higher taxes (which the British people seem unwilling to pay). Nationalisation would be a waste of resources and free bus services would help the better off as much as the less well off. But there *is* a debate to be had about the future of bus services. The current set-up is failing the areas that most need decent services. Too much of small-town & coastal Britain has a 7am to 7pm service 6 days a week. Social and economic exclusion are very real problems and hurt productivity – we’re all losers.

Some form of franchising, with private firms bidding for area networks seems like a way forward. Lots of downsides (not least resistance from much of the industry), but if it can bring standards up in the poorest areas that would be a win. I’d like to see a method of bringing commercial nous into the planning of networks - I don’t trust councillors or bodies like SPT or TfGM to get it right. I think any form of re-regulation should respect the positives of deregulation.

A final thought. We may think that Labour’s idea is nonsense on stilts, but it may turn out to be very popular – there is a good reason why Corbyn talks a lot about buses…

look at it this way before the bus service bill everyone made noise about buses.Nexus have gone very silent when it comes to buses.The cost is just too much.Look for an article the Manchester Evening news about council tax rises.Most people were against TFGM buying or operating buses.Reason being some said they dont use buses or there are better things the money can be spend on.

 

[AndrewE]

They don't care. They think deregulation must be kept at all costs.

I suppose it lets some enthusiasts drool over a constant succession of minor revisions of vehicle liveries... now where have I seen a discussion about that before? and how can it contribute to more efficient delivery of public transport, I wonder?

 

[ivanhoe]

I’d like to see a years experiment in a city outside of London,which has no alternative tram network, in offering free travel to all of its residents. Residents would still need cards but I would also like to see the Council improving the traffic time as well. Have a years data , see if it has changed peoples travel habits and then either roll it out or bin it. It would also mean a suspension of bus deregulation in the city concerned, in order to access viability. I’d advocate using Bristol or Leeds as the experimental city.

 

[Journeyman]

A lot of people on this forum, maybe the majority, prefer deregulation, even if it results in reduced passenger numbers over alternatives.

Enthusiasts like deregulation because it results in lots of pretty buses to take photos of.

People like me, who live on a First route into Edinburgh and often need to connect into trams or Lothian Buses services, find it a royal pain in the backside.

 

[carlberry]

I’d like to see a years experiment in a city outside of London,which has no alternative tram network, in offering free travel to all of its residents. Residents would still need cards but I would also like to see the Council improving the traffic time as well. Have a years data , see if it has changed peoples travel habits and then either roll it out or bin it. It would also mean a suspension of bus deregulation in the city concerned, in order to access viability. I’d advocate using Bristol or Leeds as the experimental city.

The industry has 10 years of data about what free travel does (via the OAP passes), it increases the number of people who travel because it's free. Traws Cymru also has loads of data about free to everybody travel in Wales. I assume by traffic time you mean more bus prioritisation, however councils can do this already but don't bother as car owners don't like it. The idea would fail because anybody outside of the chosen area would complain that they'd have to pay for it (as a national experiment) or car owners would complain they'd have to pay for it (as a local experiment).

 

[ivanhoe]

The industry has 10 years of data about what free travel does (via the OAP passes), it increases the number of people who travel because it's free. Traws Cymru also has loads of data about free to everybody travel in Wales. I assume by traffic time you mean more bus prioritisation, however councils can do this already but don't bother as car owners don't like it. The idea would fail because anybody outside of the chosen area would complain that they'd have to pay for it (as a national experiment) or car owners would complain they'd have to pay for it (as a local experiment).

Kind of disagree there. The rest of the Country will be looking at the scheme during the experimental period. As to just looking at ENCTS data, you are missing the point. We know that ENCTS brings more passengers, but in the main they are ‘leisure ‘passengers. I’m talking whether such a scheme would have a great effect on peak hour traffic,(am in particular). There are thousands of people out there that travel to work everyday by themselves. They’ll never change their habits currently unless either road charging comes in(highly unlikely in the near future) or if they see that getting a bus is quicker than their current habits. We can also see if there are real environmental benefits. Councils don’t have radical bus lanes imitatives at the moment. Here is an opportunity to experiment if such a scheme is viable. Who pays for it? We will all pay for it through our taxes. Will it work, well it won’t if you don’t wish it to. Not all people can use buses for work, but a lot more could. I’d be happy as a car owner, for such a trial to take place. I’d say, doing nothing at the moment, is not sustainable, but I realise it’s easy to kick the problem onto the next generation, after all, I’ll be pushing up daisies!

 

[matt_world2004]

One problem with making buses free for everyone is pricing is often used for demand rationing. Yes it maybe the case that over half of bus users are 'free' currently. But it wouldn't be the case of simply doubling the concessionary travel budget to ensure free travel for all. In most cases you would be looking at a doubling of demand. Which would require the concessionary budget to rise 400% to ensure free travel for all. On the assumption that 50% of users are free currently.