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Ethiopian Airways flight crashes (10/03) + 737 MAX grounding

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atillathehunn

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Can you be sure what aircraft you will get until you get to the gate?

It says so on the booking (our travel agent is also not booking flights on it), and if it turns up at the gate, don't get on it.

What's the cost of rebooking: $1000.
The cost of losing a human life: Discuss.

I'm travelling to Nairobi tomorrow. I almost booked Ethiopian a few weeks ago, but Air France edged them out on price and convenience. It's superstitious, but I'm a bit glad.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I'm travelling to Nairobi tomorrow. I almost booked Ethiopian a few weeks ago, but Air France edged them out on price and convenience. It's superstitious, but I'm a bit glad.

As long as you're not talking one of those highly dodgy African small airlines banned from the EU, an airline that's just had a serious accident is about as safe an airline as you'll get - they will be totally paranoid and attentive about everything and all the built-up complacency will have gone.

And flying on a 737 Max 8 is probably still safer than driving to the airport or flying was in the 60s and 70s, though this does have a nasty undertone of the de Havilland Comet crashes.

I wouldn't read too much into Asian countries banning them - Asian countries are very big on "not losing face" and "something being seen to be done", whereas European countries tend as a whole to be much more factual and calculated about actions like this. If any European country or major airline grounds them, that's really time to listen.
 

AM9

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... He did however state it is great aircraft to fly, but this was a serious omission by Boeing and he feels it was done to show the new aircraft isn't that much different in order to keep customers away from the 320 Neo.
That's my view as well. The commercial aircraft industry has long based its sales pitch on each new generation being just like the existing one with a few goodies added. This plays into the airlines who want to avoid pilot retraining costs which include simulator time and additional crew on the flight deck. It's no coincidence that the 737, the most successful jet passenger aircraft ever, has the same (737) number as it did in the late '60s when introduced. The current planes may look vaguely like the -100 models, but they are a totally different beast from almost every aspect plus their passenger capacity is heading towards three times the -100' and range similarly up to three times also. Each generation has been aggressively sold on the ease in which crew can operate almost without any additional training. They have clearly dropped the ball this time. The FAA seems to be defending Boeing at the moment. I doubt if they would if the first or second crash had been on an internal US flight.
 

TheEdge

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And flying on a 737 Max 8 is probably still safer than driving to the airport or flying was in the 60s and 70s, though this does have a nasty undertone of the de Havilland Comet crashes.

I wouldn't read too much into Asian countries banning them - Asian countries are very big on "not losing face" and "something being seen to be done", whereas European countries tend as a whole to be much more factual and calculated about actions like this. If any European country or major airline grounds them, that's really time to listen.

It does have a tiny air of Comet to it, hopefully not as serious!

Well Australia has now banned it, that's a bit more like a European nation
 

RichJF

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737 Max 8 now temporarily banned in the following countries:
Australia, Indonesia, China, Singapore (all Max family), Mongolia, South Korea

Following airlines have grounded their Max 8 fleets:
Ethiopian, Comair, Cayman, GOL Brazil, jet Airways, Aeromexico, Aerolíneas Argentinas.

I suspect the MCAS suite has not been fully bedded down & pilots not been given enough training time to get used to the subtle differences over the older 737 versions
 
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Bletchleyite

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I suspect the MCAS suite has not been fully bedded down & pilots not been given enough training time to get used to the subtle differences over the older 737 versions

It's a bodge-job. Some are comparing it to the Airbus flight laws, but it's nothing of the sort and is totally counter to Boeing's principle that the pilot is king by potentially contradicting what the pilot wants to do at a critical moment (not just, as per Airbus[1], stopping them doing something - but directly countering them). It's a bodged-on mess that was added because fixing it properly would have cost too much.

That it even exists in my view speaks volumes. But anyone who was involved in the decision not to tell pilots about it has blood on their hands. Pilots need to know EVERYTHING about their aircraft.

There is no room for this kind of thing in aviation.

[1] I know Airbus are not angels, cf that crash on a test flight when it decided it was landing.
 

AM9

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CAA has now banned B737 MAX8 from UK airspace. Going global now then?
Boeing shares will plummet today.
 

YorkshireBear

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CAA has now banned B737 MAX8 from UK airspace. Going global now then?
Boeing shares will plummet today.

I haven't seen this anywhere, have you got a source or are the big news channels just a bit behind?

Is the MAX8 particularly different to the other MAX varieties for that one to be singled out as the only one with this issue?
 

Darandio

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Yes, I'd certainly listen to that, and so I'd expect the EU or US may come soon.

You reckon the US might? I very much doubt it.

I haven't seen this anywhere, have you got a source or are the big news channels just a bit behind?

Is the MAX8 particularly different to the other MAX varieties for that one to be singled out as the only one with this issue?

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Boeing-737-MAX-Aircraft/

A spokesperson for the UK Civil Aviation Authority said: "Our thoughts go out to everyone affected by the tragic incident in Ethiopia on Sunday.

"The UK Civil Aviation Authority has been closely monitoring the situation, however, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace.

"The UK Civil Aviation Authority's safety directive will be in place until further notice.

"We remain in close contact with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and industry regulators globally."
 

RichJF

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Appears to be just the Max 8 & 9 atm.

Royal Air Maroc have also grounded their Max 8 too in other news
 
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jellybaby

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The title of the just released news from the CAA says "Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft"
The CAA Safety Directive is at http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=9020

Title:Boeing 737-8 “MAX” and Boeing 737-9 “MAX” Limitation of Operations due to a Fatal Accident in Ethiopia on 10 March 2019

Description:This SD is made in the interests of safety of operation and to protect the public following the accident of an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing Model 737-8 “MAX” aircraft on 10 March 2019. External reports are drawing similarities between this accident and Lion Air flight 610 on 29 October 2018 involving the same type of aircraft. Given the similarity of the two accidents, it has been decided that as a precautionary measure that all Boeing 737-8 “MAX” and Boeing 737-9 “MAX” operations in the United Kingdom, whether by UK AOC holders or foreign AOC holders and carriers, should stop until appropriate safeguards are in place.
 

rdeez

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BBC is reporting that a Turkish Airlines flight on its way to Birmingham from Istanbul was turned around back to Istanbul following the announcement. No idea how far into its journey it was (presumably less than half?)
 

87015

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BBC is reporting that a Turkish Airlines flight on its way to Birmingham from Istanbul was turned around back to Istanbul following the announcement. No idea how far into its journey it was (presumably less than half?)
TK1969 just shy of Frankfurt, pulled a u-turn and storming back.
 

The 4th Rail

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Will Airlines receive any sort of compensation for the groundings?

If not I would hate to see Norwegian's finances...
 

YorkshireBear

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I guess that'll be because UK ATC would refuse entry into UK airspace.

Not sure about that. Two TUI 737MAXs were allowed to enter UK airspace and land, I think it might be Turkish Airlines who possibly don't want two of their assets grounded in the UK when there was an oppurtunity to get them back to Turkey. Thats my best guess anyway!
 

AndrewE

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Not sure about that. Two TUI 737MAXs were allowed to enter UK airspace and land, I think it might be Turkish Airlines who possibly don't want two of their assets grounded in the UK when there was an oppurtunity to get them back to Turkey. Thats my best guess anyway!
Well the problem does seem to be soon after take-off, so it would be reasonable to ground them so they didn't fall out of the sky while still climbing over London...
 

TheEdge

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So now the EASA has now banned MAX flights. @Bletchleyite does this now make it "time to listen"? :lol:

By my maths of the 350 or so MAXs delivered across the world at least 160 are grounded.
 

RichJF

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UAE have now issued a temporary ban on 737 Max. That' s a biggy. FlyDubai (one of the largest Max operators) technically unable to fly them now!
 

bnm

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Aeromexico and Brazil's GOL have grounded their 737MAX fleets too.

Pretty much only US carriers still fying them.
 
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