GN Class 717

[jellybaby]

can’t remember if 3-car 313s have their own stopping position?

They used to, in theory I think they have stopped using them. For example at Highbury and Islington a 3 car train heading north would stop at the south/back end of the platform.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 3 car 313s still make appearances. Highbury, old street and Hatfield all have noticed saying where to stand.

 

[332 > 444]

Old Street, Essex Road and Drayton Park all have 3 car markers.

 

[choochoochoo]

Old Street, Essex Road and Drayton Park all have 3 car markers.

So because Old street, Essex Rd and Drayton Park all have mirrors/monitors that allow the driver to see past the blind spot on a 313 they can stop mid platform ?

Doesn't stop someone doing something silly and move into the blind spot after the train has closed doors and about to move. Baffles me they perceive this risk less important than the risk of slip/fall of a passenger walking/running along a platform to catch a train because it's further down the length of a platform.

 

[bramling]

So because Old street, Essex Rd and Drayton Park all have mirrors/monitors that allow the driver to see past the blind spot on a 313 they can stop mid platform ?

Doesn't stop someone doing something silly and move into the blind spot after the train has closed doors and about to move. Baffles me they perceive this risk less important than the risk of slip/fall of a passenger walking/running along a platform to catch a train because it's further down the length of a platform.

Regardless of how daft it may seem, the change away from having someone observe a train out of a platform was made many years ago. London Underground did same as having a guard hanging out of an open door whilst leaving a platform gave way to platform monitors where once the train moves that’s it (partly eased by in-cab monitors remaining in departing a platform, albeit introducing a major SPAD risk).

It’s a different ball game to introduce a new risk and be seen not to do anything in mitigation. Okay if nothing happens, but likely to be in serious bother if something does.

The James Street incident could have been interesting had the guard followed the dispatch procedure to the letter. The incident would almost certainly have still happened, as my understanding is the passenger moved to the dangerous position after the doors had closed, and therefore quite possibly after a “train safety check” would have been successfully completed and the guard closed his door).

 

[Intellectual98]

That arrangement sounds crazy. It’s either safe or it’s not, something doesn’t suddenly become unsafe between 119 and 120 minutes.

Evidently someone doesn’t trust someone to fix something without a draconian incentive.

It's not that it becomes unsafe at 120 minutes.

It's that it is a degraded situation. I.e worse or more risky than designed. Therefore it's more unsafe than the normal procedure at all times. All degraded working is usually limited, either by time or distance. It's a get out of jail free card that allows a service to continue for a short time with greater risk than normal, usually involving mitigations (in this instance the degradation is the inability to dispatch using normal procedures and the mitigation is the driver getting out and looking)

For example the loss of various systems on trains means that it might be able to continue until end of the day, to its terminal station, or to the next stop. It depends on the impact that it would have on safety and what potential mitigations and overlapping safety systems are available. The rules and documents regarding exactly how far a train can go, at what speed and what mitigations are in place can be fairly lengthy and confusing.

Edit: You also have to consider that the mitigation often is time consuming, having a driver get in and out of his set at every stop not only breaks attention on the signals making it unsafe, but will add time to each station stop, which will result in delays.

 

[theking]

Why can't they just put the barriers in and then lock out the affected doors on the 313 so people can't exit them?

 

[choochoochoo]

Noticed the Finsbury Park Platform 8 has had its 717 board black-bagged.

Do the 717 preview services now use the 3/4/6/8 Marker too now ?

 

[Class315]

Why can't they just put the barriers in and then lock out the affected doors on the 313 so people can't exit them?

Because 313’s are not equipped with SDO.

 

[whoosh]

Why can't they just put the barriers in and then lock out the affected doors on the 313 so people can't exit them?

Unlike modern stock which can have doors electrically isolated, and won't open when the doors are released, class 313s are locked out of use mechanically using a t-key. This means they can't be used to egress from in an emergency. Also, only class 313/1s have internal locks on the inter-car doors to prevent people from using a coach which has the external doors locked. 313/0s - the vast majority - have non-lockable internal doors, so people could find their way into a coach which has locked external doors, and then won't be able to get out in an emergency such as a fire.
If you could actually lock out the front coach on all 313s, and made use of that on the NCL when it lines up with the barrier, then you'd be in the ludicrous position of passengers only able to use the rear five coaches on a 313, and only able to exit the front 5 coaches on a 717!


313s at 3 car markers:
The blind spot on a Class 313 when stopping at a 3 car mark isn't very much. The driver sits closer to the windscreen, so has a wider view to the right out of the cab windscreen, and internally has a view out of the non-driving side window, non-driving front window, and a limited view out of the centre door window. All of which make a much smaller blind spot than the entire coach length worth of one from a 717 cab, where there is no centre cab window (and no view through it even if there was!), no view at all through the non- driving front window as it's obscured, a narrower view through the smaller non-driving side window, and a narrower view through the front window.

Degraded dispatch:
If a platform monitor fails, or a mirror broken then the Driver can go back and close up each coach individually using special buttons on the end of each coach (717s and 700s haven't got these!!). There is a 2 hour limit on trains continuing to call without it being fixed or a dispatcher provided, so that the problem doesn't become one that lasts weeks and months.
If it's a right hand side platform however, then the train that discovers the fault is the last one to use it until it's fixed or a dispatcher provided. This is because on 313s, the Driver won't gain an interlock light until his cab door is shut (and therefore can't see out of it along the train). There is no droplight window on that side of the cab to look out of either.

 

[jon0844]

It could be on for trains running before the end of this month. A plan has been made that should solve the issues and have all trains running by July.

Let's see!

 

[daniel1234321]

Really? In what way? As nothing seems to have changed so the punishment wasn’t punitive enough (whatever it was/ is) to change their behaviour. The still skip stops after a 5 minute delay to recover 0 minutes (or lose more time for example)

TOCs are fined by how many minutes late trains are to their final destination, which is why they skip stops.

 

[daniel1234321]

Is it TfL owned? They have already said not when it comes to thinks like installing WiFi on the platforms.

It's NR owned.

 

[Failed Unit]

TOCs are fined by how many minutes late trains are to their final destination, which is why they skip stops.

I understand they are also fined for missing stops (although clearly not enough considering GTR do it with even 5 minutes of delay) - even if the next service is over 1 hour later.

 

[daniel1234321]

It could be on for trains running before the end of this month. A plan has been made that should solve the issues and have all trains running by July.

Let's see!

What is this plan? Dispatchers at NCL stations?

 

[jon0844]

What is this plan? Dispatchers at NCL stations?

Yes, until the 313s have all gone, when a barrier will be put up on the platforms as required.

 

[daniel1234321]

Yes, until the 313s have all gone, when a barrier will be put up on the platforms as required.

Do you have any idea of timeframes? Like when 717s will enter service?

 

[choochoochoo]

Degraded dispatch:
If a platform monitor fails, or a mirror broken then the Driver can go back and close up each coach individually using special buttons on the end of each coach (717s and 700s haven't got these!!). There is a 2 hour limit on trains continuing to call without it being fixed or a dispatcher provided, so that the problem doesn't become one that lasts weeks and months.
If it's a right hand side platform however, then the train that discovers the fault is the last one to use it until it's fixed or a dispatcher provided. This is because on 313s, the Driver won't gain an interlock light until his cab door is shut (and therefore can't see out of it along the train). There is no droplight window on that side of the cab to look out of either.

For degraded dispatch on 313, do you know why a driver has to use the coach end buttons ? Can they not press close door button, leave the cab and walk along the length of the train to ensure nobody is trapped in the doors ? Is this how it's done on 700/717 ?
Also, once the doors are closed, it is checked nobody is trapped and the driver returns to driving position, why do they even need to look back through a droplight window ?

 

[332 > 444]

There's a mode called terminal station mode, so once you get to your final stop or have to do a degraded despatch, select that and walk through the train using the local close door buttons and then the door wont be able to be opened again.

Then again I'm telling you this like you don't sign these

 

[choochoochoo]

Terminal mode on 717 is not really going to work for degraded dispatch. It's more for shutdown and stopping people getting on once out of service.

I am still curious as to why drivers need to use outdoor push buttons to check the doors are shut and nothing is trapped rather than shut all the doors at the same time and then check ? Is it just a passenger convenience thing in case passengers turn up whilst you're doing the check ?

 

[332 > 444]

Yes as they can’t be opened again. Believe it or not that’s what we was told to do, surely there’s another way.....oh yeah despatchers

 

[sprunt]

Hindsight is wonderful but why didn’t they build a prototype or at least start testing them earlier. At least the 385s had production halted. (Although it was a bigger run)

I don't understand why it couldn't have been picked up at the design stage. I assume there's 3D modelling used at the design stage, and there should be accurate 3D models of the station layouts (I've not played them, but from what I hear the trainsim computer games have extremely accurate representations of everything, so it's not beyond the wit of man) available to enable the visibility from the cab to be checked before a single rivet has been hammered in.

 

[grid56126]

TOCs are fined by how many minutes late trains are to their final destination, which is why they skip stops.

5" late arrival = PPM failure
Right time arrival with one skipped stop = PPM failure
Read my previous replies to this conspiracy. I would not have changed jobs if I could have sat at my desk all day fiddling books instead of recovering train services. I might have had time for a meal break as well.

 

[RichardN]

The James Street incident could have been interesting had the guard followed the dispatch procedure to the letter. The incident would almost certainly have still happened, as my understanding is the passenger moved to the dangerous position after the doors had closed, and therefore quite possibly after a “train safety check” would have been successfully completed and the guard closed his door).

Likely it would be the company in the dock, rather than the guard, though.. By electing to do an extra visual check, the guard took on the responsibility to do it safely, himself.

 

[choochoochoo]

Yes as they can’t be opened again. Believe it or not that’s what we was told to do, surely there’s another way.....oh yeah despatchers

But isn't that the only way to do a degraded dispatch on a 717/700 ? To press the close doors button and walk along the length of the train ? I can't think of any other way of doing it? Seeing as degraded dispatch will probably only arise due to a unit specific fault (unless there is a power cut like at hornsey the other night), it's not going to stop other following 717s stopping there.

 

[choochoochoo]

Yes, until the 313s have all gone, when a barrier will be put up on the platforms as required.

Just on NCL or on any right hand side platform ?

 

[transmanche]

Just on NCL or on any right hand side platform ?

I'm guessing that would depend on the signal position. My understanding from reading this thread is that the problem is caused by signals on the NCL being located on the right-hand side, rather than on the left. So in order for drivers to see the signal clearly, they have stop a bit further back along the platform - hence the need for a barrier (like you see at tube stations).

See post #1567 for a better explanation!

 

[choochoochoo]

I'm guessing that would depend on the signal position. My understanding from reading this thread is that the problem is caused by signals on the NCL being located on the right-hand side, rather than on the left. So in order for drivers to see the signal clearly, they have stop a bit further back along the platform - hence the need for a barrier (like you see at tube stations).

See post #1567 for a better explanation!

Thanks, makes sense.

So if the signal is visible from the cab of a train that's stopped at the end of a platform, then no barriers are needed.

 

[transmanche]

So if the signal is visible from the cab of a train that's stopped at the end of a platform, then no barriers are needed.

That is my understanding.

 

[BowesRanger]

Saw a 717 leaving Moorgate shortly after 10pm last night... Are they testing new dispatch arrangements by any chance?