London Northwestern Class 730s

[RealTrains07]

Bit late, but if the some of the 730s are 2x3 seating then why replace the 350/2s as i thought the 2x3 seating was the reason why LNR are throwing out those trains? Like the 170s which dont have end gangways?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bit late, but if the some of the 730s are 2x3 seating then why replace the 350/2s as i thought the 2x3 seating was the reason why LNR are throwing out those trains? Like the 170s which dont have end gangways?

No, the reason for getting rid is that the owner of the 350/2s charge too much for them. I guess their bluff was called and they lost.

Had they been the same price as the /1 and /3 I doubt they would be going anywhere.

 

[43096]

No, the reason for getting rid is that the owner of the 350/2s charge too much for them. I guess their bluff was called and they lost.

The problem is probably the cost of financing them when they were ordered, as they were ordered around the time of the financial crash, rather than the simplistic “the owner charges too much”. Lenders went very risk averse at that point which would have translated into higher costs for the owner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is probably the cost of financing them when they were ordered, as they were ordered around the time of the financial crash, rather than the simplistic “the owner charges too much”. Lenders went very risk averse at that point which would have translated into higher costs for the owner.

I'm sure there was a reason, but from the TOC's point of view that is irrelevant - if brand-new units are cheaper than used ones who wouldn't buy new?

 

[hwl]

The problem is probably the cost of financing them when they were ordered, as they were ordered around the time of the financial crash, rather than the simplistic “the owner charges too much”. Lenders went very risk averse at that point which would have translated into higher costs for the owner.

Agreed. Worth noting that Porterbrook and Angel have manage to refinance some of their more expensive debt over the last 18 months or so but there is still some expensive debt lurking.

 

[supervc-10]

I can't help thinking though that making a smaller loss on leasing out the 350/2s is still better than making a total loss with them sitting in storage though. Angel and Porterbrook will still be having to pay back their debts, whether the trains are leased out or not. Getting some money back is better than none!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't help thinking though that making a smaller loss on leasing out the 350/2s is still better than making a total loss with them sitting in storage though. Angel and Porterbrook will still be having to pay back their debts, whether the trains are leased out or not. Getting some money back is better than none!

Quite, and this is why LNR called their bluff - but of course they lost that call and will now need to find something to do with what are quite decent EMUs. Drop the price and they could have a role allowing Northern 319s to be scrapped, for instance.

For LNR that is a bit of a shame, though, as an all-Desiro fleet (by bringing in 360s instead of buying new, possibly modifying them to add gangways) would have had big benefits.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Quite, and this is why LNR called their bluff - but of course they lost that call and will now need to find something to do with what are quite decent EMUs. Drop the price and they could have a role allowing Northern 319s to be scrapped, for instance.

For LNR that is a bit of a shame, though, as an all-Desiro fleet (by bringing in 360s instead of buying new, possibly modifying them to add gangways) would have had big benefits.

The GA 360's apparently have an older cab that doesn't allow for it to be changed easily unlike all the future Desiro's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The GA 360's apparently have an older cab that doesn't allow for it to be changed easily unlike all the future Desiro's.

Perhaps not *easily* - but they did manage to rebuild the Junipers as faux-Desiros!

 

[LOL The Irony]

Perhaps not *easily* - but they did manage to rebuild the Junipers as faux-Desiros!

I think the GA 360 cab has to be hacked off, anyone in the know wish to divulge?

 

[pt_mad]

Quite, and this is why LNR called their bluff - but of course they lost that call and will now need to find something to do with what are quite decent EMUs. Drop the price and they could have a role allowing Northern 319s to be scrapped, for instance.

For LNR that is a bit of a shame, though, as an all-Desiro fleet (by bringing in 360s instead of buying new, possibly modifying them to add gangways) would have had big benefits.

It's quite surprising really that the 350/2s may not have a home (yet). Greater Anglia possibly could have used 350s as an alternative to Flirts on the Norwich to Liverpool Street services if the interior was refurbed which I'm sure wouldn't be unrealistic. They offer 110mph which is all the Anglia mainline requires at present and have a proven track record of reliability. Its not like the Anglia Flirts even require end coach vestibules, as the Flirt door will be on the middle of the coach. Seems a shame re the 350s not yet having a home really.

 

[supervc-10]

Quite, and this is why LNR called their bluff - but of course they lost that call and will now need to find something to do with what are quite decent EMUs. Drop the price and they could have a role allowing Northern 319s to be scrapped, for instance.

Absolutely- and it's totally the right call for LNR to have made. Having said that... I wouldn't mind them up here in Manchester!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely- and it's totally the right call for LNR to have made. Having said that... I wouldn't mind them up here in Manchester!

I doubt anyone would mind them, really, they are very good kit, highly reliable and very popular with those of us on the south WCML - even if we might prefer a /1 or /3!

 

[RealTrains07]

Perhaps not *easily* - but they did manage to rebuild the Junipers as faux-Desiros!

And they are even more faster than before

 

[RealTrains07]

It's quite surprising really that the 350/2s may not have a home (yet). Greater Anglia possibly could have used 350s as an alternative to Flirts on the Norwich to Liverpool Street services if the interior was refurbed which I'm sure wouldn't be unrealistic. They offer 110mph which is all the Anglia mainline requires at present and have a proven track record of reliability. Its not like the Anglia Flirts even require end coach vestibules, as the Flirt door will be on the middle of the coach. Seems a shame re the 350s not yet having a home really.

Problem is, insider sources say LNR dont know when the 350/2s will be returned since their is no update on the status of the new 730s. TOCs cant really take trains that aren’t definitely not needed by the operator

 

[43096]

Problem is, insider sources say LNR dont know when the 350/2s will be returned since their is no update on the status of the new 730s. TOCs cant really take trains that aren’t definitely not needed by the operator

Ultimately the ROSCO will have a lease end date in their contract with the TOC. If another TOC offers to lease them from that end date for (say) five years, then the ROSCO will take that offer. If their replacements are not available, and the new TOC declines to agree a deferred transfer, then it’s tough - the trains have to transfer whether replacements are available or not.

 

[Chiltern006]

Will 4 car 730s run on the Abbey Line or will that be 350s??

 

[Bletchleyite]

There won't be any 4 car 730s, so I guess a 350.

 

[hwl]

Don't forget that the 730's will also displace the 319's from LNW

So 37 350/2's and 15 319's out in the next two years
10 350/4's and 45 730's coming in.

And the 45x 730s equivalent to 60x 20m 4 car EMUs...

 

[jw]

Some renders of the new units within this stakeholder presentation, including interiors. It's a relatively large presentation.

Also includes details of forthcoming service changes at May timetable change

 

[class387]

Some renders of the new units within this stakeholder presentation, including interiors. It's a relatively large presentation.

Also includes details of forthcoming service changes at May timetable change

Yet again the first class on the 730s could be worse than standard. Ridiculous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet again the first class on the 730s could be worse than standard. Ridiculous.

Wow. Fabric-faced Class 800 Standard seats for First Class? Are they mad? (At least ScotRail have fitted them 2+1 with double armrests and leather, but they are still rubbish).

I repeat my call - fit 2+1 and keep the present long distance fares and I will use 1st every time. I will not pay a First Class fare for 2+2 seating ever. The appeal for me is the single wide seat, without it it has no appeal at all.

 

[Mollman]

Some renders of the new units within this stakeholder presentation, including interiors. It's a relatively large presentation.

Also includes details of forthcoming service changes at May timetable change

What are these additional 3 car DMUs? I know 2 car cover 172s and 230s.

 

[HLE]

8 172's and 3 230's. Had me thinking too.
Wonder if they're retaining the 153's after all

 

[Chiltern006]

Will the 730s operate on the abbey line or will it be a 350 as 319s are being replaced

 

[samuelmorris]

Will the 730s operate on the abbey line or will it be a 350 as 319s are being replaced

I'd have thought a 350 would be more likely as the 730s based in the South will be much longer and would probably hang out the end of the platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will the 730s operate on the abbey line or will it be a 350 as 319s are being replaced

350 is the plan I believe.

 

[RealTrains07]

July issue lf Modern railways magazine has revealed bombardier has a backlog of 222 units.

Dont think we will be seeing 730s anytime soon

 

[pt_mad]

July issue lf Modern railways magazine has revealed bombardier has a backlog of 222 units.

Dont think we will be seeing 730s anytime soon

Is the backlog from the Anglia units and...others...?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Time to start amassing other EMUs then? Good job nobody's got grand plans for the 350/2s yet...if this was DMUs we'd be knackered.