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Class 350 3rd Rail capability?

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Metal_gee_man

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #45 originally in this thread.

Can the 350s be 3rd rail shoed and basically become 450s and find their way down to 3rd rail country either in addition to SWRs 450s fleet or even replace the SE networkers?
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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Can the 350s be 3rd rail shoed and basically become 450s and find their way down to 3rd rail country either in addition to SWRs 450s fleet or even replace the SE networkers?
350/1s certainly used to be dual-voltage equipped, and no doubt could be refitted with third rail shoegear and associated equipment without massive cost. The necessary designs for 350s to run on third rail clearly exists in the form of the 350/1, but I have no idea whether the 350/2s are sufficiently removed from the architectural design of the 350/1s to make it a fruitless endeavour.

Something like SE Networkers is perhaps one of the more likely use cases if at all, since SWR seem keen on replacing a lot of their fleet (well, at least they were!).
 

RealTrains07

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350/1s certainly used to be dual-voltage equipped, and no doubt could be refitted with third rail shoegear and associated equipment without massive cost. The necessary designs for 350s to run on third rail clearly exists in the form of the 350/1, but I have no idea whether the 350/2s are sufficiently removed from the architectural design of the 350/1s to make it a fruitless endeavour.

Something like SE Networkers is perhaps one of the more likely use cases if at all, since SWR seem keen on replacing a lot of their fleet (well, at least they were!).

Plus with the potential of stagecoach possibility winning the next SE franchise, i wouldnt be suprised if they took the 350/2s for SE following their desiro success with SWT
 

swt_passenger

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Can the 350s be 3rd rail shoed and basically become 450s and find their way down to 3rd rail country either in addition to SWRs 450s fleet or even replace the SE networkers?
All post privatisation EMUs have a DC stage in the internal power conversion, which makes fitting shoes and the necessary extra wiring technically feasible, but it’s pretty unlikely SWR would now need any. As mentioned in the various SWT/SWR cascade threads, it’s only hindsight that now allows for the possibility, but firm plans had been made before the 350/2s became available.
 

swt_passenger

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350/1s certainly used to be dual-voltage equipped, and no doubt could be refitted with third rail shoegear and associated equipment without massive cost...
They are still fitted with third rail shoe gear. But the shoe arm is hidden when in the raised position.
 

supervc-10

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I thought it was just the 350/1s that had shoe gear fitted and associated electronics?
 

swt_passenger

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I thought it was just the 350/1s that had shoe gear fitted and associated electronics?
It is, definitely only the 350/1s. “Electronics” would possibly be stretching it though. As well as the visible shoe gear itself, cables and fuses is about all there is in addition to a non-DC version.
I thought the actual shoes had been removed. They were refitted for when they were being used on the WLL but removed again afterwards.
No they really weren't removed. I uploaded photos taken at Euston only a few years ago, long after they were used on the WLL, primarily to show how they are almost impossible to see from a platform. I’ll try and find the post, here you go:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-350-for-southern-2009.130222/#post-2554807
 
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43096

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Plus with the potential of stagecoach possibility winning the next SE franchise, i wouldnt be suprised if they took the 350/2s for SE following their desiro success with SWT
Except Stagecoach are bidding in partnership with Alstom.
 

43096

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Iam not sure what difference that would make plus considering the 350/2 is the most reliable train in the uk
Alstom are presumably expecting to get some new train orders out of it. 458s from SWR would make more sense in the context of cascaded stock.
 

RealTrains07

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Alstom are presumably expecting to get some new train orders out of it. 458s from SWR would make more sense in the context of cascaded stock.

Would agree with you however considering the 458s are older than 350/2 i would like to believe trains with younger life would be chosen over older ones that had to be combined in order to stay reliable
 

swt_passenger

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Would agree with you however considering the 458s are older than 350/2 i would like to believe trains with younger life would be chosen over older ones that had to be combined in order to stay reliable
They weren’t combined in order to stay reliable, they (458 & 460 fleets) were combined to provide the optimum number of 10 car trains from the total number of vehicles.
 

RealTrains07

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They weren’t combined in order to stay reliable, they (458 & 460 fleets) were combined to provide the optimum number of 10 car trains from the total number of vehicles.

Still fact remains that the 458s are older and are not as reliable compared to 350/2
 

Class 170101

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They offer 110mph which is all the Anglia mainline requires at present and have a proven track record of reliability.

GEML only a 100mph railway. No need for 110mph capability.

As far as I'm aware the Class 350/2s have no 3rd Rail capability only the Class 350/1s have this and was used as noted for a period of time between Watford Jn and East Croydon on Southern services.
 

RealTrains07

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Oh I agree with the comparison with 350s, but not your suggestion that they were combined with the 460s as a reliability improvement.

Yeah i got that wrong its just considering the combinment of the 2 fleets made the trains faster than before
 

RealTrains07

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GEML only a 100mph railway. No need for 110mph capability.

As far as I'm aware the Class 350/2s have no 3rd Rail capability only the Class 350/1s have this and was used as noted for a period of time between Watford Jn and East Croydon on Southern services.
A set of 350s was sent to LM after being rejected by south west trains? Was that not 350/2, swear those trains had 3rd rail capability. I dont think it was 350/1s
 

Class 170101

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Definitely the Class 350/1s diverted by the DfT from the SWT to Silverlink as it was then.
 

E6007

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And the 350/2 were ordered by London Midland on winning the franchise in 2007 to replace a similar number of 321s. The 350/3 were ordered as part of Project 110.
 

43096

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A set of 350s was sent to LM after being rejected by south west trains? Was that not 350/2, swear those trains had 3rd rail capability. I dont think it was 350/1s
No, and they were not “rejected” by SWT.

The original SWT Desiro order was:
45 x 5-car 23m (444001-045)
100 x 4-car 20m (450001-100)
32 x 5-car 20m (450201-232?)

The 5-car 450s were for 10-car suburban workings, which the SRA declined to fund the platform extensions at the time. As a result, Siemens got a nice variation order that modified the 160 car order for 5-car sets into:
10 x 4-car DC only for SWT (450101-110)
30 x 4-car dual voltage for Silverlink and Central (350101-130)
 

Silverlinky

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Don't forget that the 730's will also displace the 319's from LNW

So 37 350/2's and 15 319's out in the next two years
10 350/4's and 45 730's coming in.
 

Mikey C

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Plus with the potential of stagecoach possibility winning the next SE franchise, i wouldnt be suprised if they took the 350/2s for SE following their desiro success with SWT

Apart from anything else, the Desiro (classics) have very slow doors which would make them bad replacements for the Networkers on the inner London routes
 

Bletchleyite

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Apart from anything else, the Desiro (classics) have very slow doors which would make them bad replacements for the Networkers on the inner London routes

I still think there is a very good chance of them ending up somewhere like Manchester where things aren't as tightly timed (P13/14 aside).
 

RealTrains07

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Apart from anything else, the Desiro (classics) have very slow doors which would make them bad replacements for the Networkers on the inner London routes

Unlike newer cheap trains, the desiros were build with doors that work on an air pressured system, isnt easy to release air pressure quickly
 

Mikey C

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Unlike newer cheap trains, the desiros were build with doors that work on an air pressured system, isnt easy to release air pressure quickly

How do the Networker plug doors work, as to me they open pretty quickly?
 
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