West Lothian buses

[SpeedbirdA350]

25, 34 and 35 do seem to be popular with students, but don't most students have a ridacard?

What is to stop First from creating new routes, so part of one and part of another and connect them up? I guess time will tell what they will do if anything but I just hope it does not have a detrimental effect on the future of buses in Edinburgh.

 

[Jordan Adam]

25, 34 and 35 do seem to be popular with students, but don't most students have a ridacard?

What is to stop First from creating new routes, so part of one and part of another and connect them up? I guess time will tell what they will do if anything but I just hope it does not have a detrimental effect on the future of buses in Edinburgh.

I doubt First will make any major impact in Edinburgh, but they could gain some ground if they play their cards right. They should focus on creating new links rather than copying existing services.

 

[ChrisPJ]

First launching a competitive onslaught in Edinburgh?

When they've tried it before, and failed?

When they've let competitors slowly push them out of Northampton, North Devon, Plymouth, and soon Southampton?

When they sold their East Lothian operations to the company they'd be competing with?

When they're about to bail out of Greater Manchester?

Don't think so.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

First launching a competitive onslaught in Edinburgh?

When they've tried it before, and failed?

When they've let competitors slowly push them out of Northampton, North Devon, Plymouth, and soon Southampton?

When they sold their East Lothian operations to the company they'd be competing with?

When they're about to bail out of Greater Manchester?

Don't think so.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Jordan Adam]

And once again people make the mistake of not viewing each situation individually...

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

I doubt First will make any major impact in Edinburgh, but they could gain some ground if they play their cards right. They should focus on creating new links rather than copying existing services.

For first to make a major impact in Edinburgh, they would need as I said before, at least 450 buses and to push Lothian back but they won't do that because that would be near impossible given the time (would take years) but as you said, play the correct cards and they could have a royal flush in a small part like in their own back yard of WL. Would it be enough for Lothian to worry though and do anything like lower their fares and adjust routes/timetables? I can't see it to be honest. I can see them trying to push LCB out of Livi though, well, try to anyway as I think LCB would dig their heels in which they are already starting to do with the purchase of a depot in Deans.

 

[oldman]

Hard to know how seriously to take this.

The website is clearly an amateur job pretending to be a news agency and the style of the article is amateur too. How many is a plethora of buses - more than an abundance, less than a glut? Lothian have a 40% market share - really, 40% of what market? - too little for Edinburgh, too much for West Lothian. On the other hand they appear to have a genuine quote from Jarvis.

Looks like a bit of sabre-waving from First but done in a way that it can be denied.

 

[Jordan Adam]

For first to make a major impact in Edinburgh, they would need as I said before, at least 450 buses and to push Lothian back but they won't do that because that would be near impossible given the time (would take years) but as you said, play the correct cards and they could have a royal flush in a small part. Would it be enough for Lothian to worry though and do anything like lower their fares and adjust routes/timetables? I can't see it to be honest.

I agree with you, i think it's much more realistic that First will target a certain area (probably on the west side of the city) rather than the city as a whole (if this does happen).

Hard to know how seriously to take this.

The website is clearly an amateur job pretending to be a news agency and the style of the article is amateur too. How many is a plethora of buses - more than an abundance, less than a glut? Lothian have a 40% market share - really, 40% of what market? - too little for Edinburgh, too much for West Lothian. On the other hand they appear to have a genuine quote from Jarvis.

Looks like a bit of sabre-waving from First but done in a way that it can be denied.

As i say, it's best to wait for an official announcement on the First website or from Jarvis himself before fully believing any of this.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First launching a competitive onslaught in Edinburgh?

When they've tried it before, and failed?

When they've let competitors slowly push them out of Northampton, North Devon, Plymouth, and soon Southampton?

When they sold their East Lothian operations to the company they'd be competing with?

When they're about to bail out of Greater Manchester?

Don't think so.

Bit of a correction. Plymouth they dug in and weren’t pushed out. They lost money, Go Ahead lost more, they then sold up but not to GAG.

The other examples are years old - First appears to have a different view on competition these days. Hence why I doubt they’ll go “all in” but won’t roll over either.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Bit of a correction. Plymouth they dug in and weren’t pushed out. They lost money, Go Ahead lost more, they then sold up but not to GAG.

The other examples are years old - First appears to have a different view on competition these days. Hence why I doubt they’ll go “all in” but won’t roll over either.

To add to this with Southampton First scaled back to strengthen the rest of the network.

 

[In Focus]

It could be a bluff, to get Lothian attention, on the matter. There is no point Flooding West Lothian with any more buses, it would be a waste of time having a bus every 5mins to Bathgate, yet if there were to place more buses heading into Edinburgh and picked up alot of Student traffic that would have a better chance, Maybe were get edinburgh North bus back?

Maybe Lothian should stop wasting its money and just to Giles and write a blank cheque................................

Its not a "bluff" how successful it will be is another matter though.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Could there be a route that takes on the old Livingston to Juniper Green route but extending into West End via Craiglockhart and Merchiston? This would provide West Lothian links to all Napier campuses.

 

[In Focus]

I doubt First will make any major impact in Edinburgh, but they could gain some ground if they play their cards right. They should focus on creating new links rather than copying existing services.

It isn't to make a major impact it's to take some money out of Lothian and I'd guess if they get it correct First will take more in Edinburgh than LCB take in West Lothian.
For me that Airport to City route is a licence to print money and something First would be well advised to get into ....

 

[overthewater]

I still think is to get Lothian attention, on the matter. Maybe for them to write a blank cheque to Giles..

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Could there be a route that takes on the old Livingston to Juniper Green route but extending into West End via Craiglockhart and Merchiston? This would provide West Lothian links to all Napier campuses.

If it were to go via Ashley Ter, Slateford Road and catch the student accommodation at Fountainbridge, it could work. Good turnaround point would be Semple St and Lothian Road.

 

[smtglasgow]

First thought was: ‘this isn’t going to end well’. But maybe I’m wrong. As long as they keep it small, this could be a real irritation for Lothian. Presumably First are going after cash fares and concessions - doubt they’ll win over anyone with Ridacard – so running a frequent 7am till 7pm service on a couple of corridors might actually make some money.

The real purpose is presumably to put pressure on Lothian in West Lothian, but Edinburgh is a far more lucrative market – if First can get a toehold here, it would cause Lothian real problems. Lothian are in a different league to First, and will always be the dominant operator, but if First can make their city services pay, they could be a long-term irritant. Which wasn’t part of the Lothian plan when they went into West Lothian.

Which leads to another possibility – Lothian make First an offer. As things stand, First could demand a premium on Livingston, so if a decent offer came along, they’d be mad to turn it down. This story could take some unexpected turns...

 

[Journeyman]

The real purpose is presumably to put pressure on Lothian in West Lothian, but Edinburgh is a far more lucrative market – if First can get a toehold here, it would cause Lothian real problems. Lothian are in a different league to First, and will always be the dominant operator, but if First can make their city services pay, they could be a long-term irritant. Which wasn’t part of the Lothian plan when they went into West Lothian.

Clearly things have changed at First. Even a year or two ago, their standard reaction to a competitive move from someone else was to pack up and go home very quickly. I think Lothian are very surprised that they've dug in and resisted, but I suppose First have given up on so much, that if West Lothian goes under, FSE is finished.

 

[overthewater]

Nice to see someone has the same line of thinking.

 

[Journeyman]

Hard to know how seriously to take this.

The website is clearly an amateur job pretending to be a news agency and the style of the article is amateur too. How many is a plethora of buses - more than an abundance, less than a glut? Lothian have a 40% market share - really, 40% of what market? - too little for Edinburgh, too much for West Lothian. On the other hand they appear to have a genuine quote from Jarvis.

The exact same text is in the Edinburgh Evening News (dead tree version), which I looked at this morning, along with all their usual anti-tram content.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Bit of a correction. Plymouth they dug in and weren’t pushed out. They lost money, Go Ahead lost more, they then sold up but not to GAG.

Hardly. The same sort of failed strategy as seen in Edinburgh 20 years ago. Retrench from historic territory to reallocate resources onto, 'lucrative', city work. find out a few months later that's a bad move, discover that others have moved in on the country routes, shrink the busness again. same sort of death-by-a-thousand-cuts as witnessed elsewhere.

To add to this with Southampton First scaled back to strengthen the rest of the network.

have you taken leave of your senses? First Southampton have been doing this repeatedly for more than two decades. downsized the network at least one time each year since it was citybus.

Realistically how can you compete effectively in Edinburgh? Anything worth doing is totally sewn up by Lothian and most corridors youd need twenty buses an hour to have any chance of attracting significant passenger volume. millions of pounds worth extra operational costs. wheres First Scotland East getting that sort of funding from? the company's a shadow of what it was even in 2001 when they last had a crack, East Lothian gone, Midlothian gone, Linlithgow gone, Borders gone.

it aint happening folks!!

 

[In Focus]

Realistically how can you compete effectively in Edinburgh? Anything worth doing is totally sewn up by Lothian and most corridors youd need twenty buses an hour to have any chance of attracting significant passenger volume. millions of pounds worth extra operational costs. wheres First Scotland East getting that sort of funding from? the company's a shadow of what it was even in 2001 when they last had a crack, East Lothian gone, Midlothian gone, Linlithgow gone, Borders gone.

Utter nonsense ,no one has said First are even going to attempt to "compete" they are going after some revenue on certain areas of the city and as i said earlier First will recoup more money in City then LCB will ever make in West Lothian without even doing very much.
Dropping fares on existing corridors ,introducing a 7-7 cheap day ticket , getting a foothold into Airport /City (something First Glasgow do very well already) will give Lothian plenty to think about and will certainly test their resolve to throw away millions in West Lothian with no realistic chance of ever recouping it .
ADD to this the new tram works and the complaints already awaiting a hearing from the privates being squeeze out of business by Lothian and they will have plenty to keep them occupied going forward.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hardly. The same sort of failed strategy as seen in Edinburgh 20 years ago. Retrench from historic territory to reallocate resources onto, 'lucrative', city work. find out a few months later that's a bad move, discover that others have moved in on the country routes, shrink the busness again. same sort of death-by-a-thousand-cuts as witnessed elsewhere.



it aint happening folks!!

Sorry but the instance on Plymouth was wrong and as for the others, they were born of the Blockhead era.

First aren’t going to pitch into Edinburgh but recently, they’ve pushed back on competition - see Wessex!

 

[ChrisPJ]

Plymouth went through the Ugobus phase, once First got bored of that, newer vehicles were shipped off and manky old B6s etc stayed on to provide poor quality competition to Go Ahead who had quietly expanded during that episode.

No money to replace the fleet so First took the easy way out and sold what was left to Stagecoach. Not a criticism of that particular action -sensible given the circumstances but another textbook example of how to diminish the value in a business.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Plymouth went through the Ugobus phase, once First got bored of that, newer vehicles were shipped off and manky old B6s etc stayed on to provide poor quality competition to Go Ahead who had quietly expanded during that episode.

No money to replace the fleet so First took the easy way out and sold what was left to Stagecoach. Not a criticism of that particular action -sensible given the circumstances but another textbook example of how to diminish the value in a business.

Ugobus was TEN years ago. Yes, it was an ill considered move and led to other developments - law of unintended consequences!

However, they didn’t take the easy way out as they had in Northampton or Barnstaple. That’s the point!

 

[ChrisPJ]

No, Plymouth was the easy way. Northampton was the hard way. Assets all written off ( was that old depot an asset or a liability?) and presumably a fair old redundancy bill. Painful to watch and painful for the employees.

It'll be fascinating to see what happens in the Edinburgh area. But the First track record is generally not good even when they buy an existing operation to obtain a base e.g. Finglands.

 

[overthewater]

All first are doing is putting on 25? buses into two very selective corridors to cause trouble for Lothian and nothing else.

 

[Jordan Adam]

All first are doing is putting on 25? buses into two very selective corridors to cause trouble for Lothian and nothing else.

We don't know what they're doing for sure yet, loads of rumours are going about. It's probably better to wait for an official press release on the First website before saying they are doing this or that.

 

[overthewater]

We don't know what they're doing for sure yet, loads of rumours are going about. It's probably better to wait for an official press release on the First website before saying they are doing this or that.

Your right, but what been hinted at is more along the lines what I postage. Many people on here have enter cloud cuckoo land about a major expansion.

 

[Observer]

The question really does come to mind if they surrendered loads of school work that has been in their hands for many years just for a silly bus war that might not last long.

 

[overthewater]

The question really does come to mind if they surrendered loads of school work that has been in their hands for many years just for a silly bus war that might not last long.

I don't believe the two are connected, mainly because you wont get many ie most of the drivers moving from down to Livingston, and most of the stock is near end of life.