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Network Rail traffic (i.e NR works trains)

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Ken H

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Just watched a cl66 and a load of yellow wagons with a load that looked like ballast from an overbridge. Could not see any markings on the side of the truck
It was near Hellifield so must have been 679B Mountsrrel-Carlisle, TOC = ZZ

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00243/2019/03/15/advanced

2 questions
Why drag low value stone all the way from Leicestershire to Carlisle. there is a rail connected quarry at Helwith Bridge.

How much rail traffic is internal stuff like this?
 
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8stewartt

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The train you saw was 6C89 Mountsorrel - Carlisle.

The “low value” stone you refer too is not so “low value”.

The stone produced from Mountsorrel & Cliffe Hill quarries, both in Leicestershire about 8 miles apart, both rail served and operating all the time, produce some of, if not, the best stone in the country for railway ballast, hence the flows being operated.

In response to your final question, a LOT of stone is moved this way, all for Network Rail engineering projects. Most trains are run to virtual quarries at strategic engineering delivery yards, others are occasionally run directly from quarry to site for bigger projects. These quarries supply locations such as Westbury, Whitemoor, Toton, Doncaster, Carlisle, Crewe, Eastleigh to name but a few.

Those yellow wagons, which are known as IOA wagons, can hold approx 75T of ballast each, and often run in rakes of 20 at a time. Mountsorrel loads approx 3 per day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks of the year, that’s a lot of ballast from just one quarry.

Hope this helps.
 

GB

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Who says its low value? Theres clearly a market for it otherwise it wouldn't run. I don't know about the specific operational set up but perhaps the quarry at Helwith Bridge doesn't supply the stuff that Carlisle require?
 

Tom Quinne

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Under BR it would be no value in terms of financial value to BR, but now it’s a huge part of FOCs profit each year.
 

Spartacus

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Mountsorrel produces pink granite, perfect for ballast. Arcow produces siltstone and gritstone: both sedimentary, which is pretty much useless as ballast.
 

Llanigraham

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2 questions
Why drag low value stone all the way from Leicestershire to Carlisle. there is a rail connected quarry at Helwith Bridge.

How much rail traffic is internal stuff like this?

1/ It isn't low value, it is rail ballast.
2/ Because the stone produced by Helwith Bridge quarry isn't rail ballast
3/ Lots!
 

Spartacus

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they used to use limestone from Horton....

Depends on the rock. Siltstone and gritstone are no good, no doubt due to what they were originally formed of. Can't remember the high school geology but I think limestone's formed from coral and shellfish, which probably plays a bit part in it being so hard. Makes sense with a name like that.
 

Dr Hoo

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Under BR it would be no value in terms of financial value to BR, but now it’s a huge part of FOCs profit each year.

From various statistical releases on the ORR website, infrastructure traffic overall (not only ballast, of course) came to just under 10% of the total 'real freight' traffic (about 0.42 billion tonne km as against 4.3 billion tonne km in the most recent quarter).

The FOCs are only marginally profitable. Most made a loss in 2016-17 but overall they made a profit of £33m on turnover of £826m in 2017-18 (i.e. <4%, nowhere near even offsetting the previous year's losses of £98m at DB Cargo, Freightliner and DRS). So infrastructure traffic might have generated (say) £3 million over 5 FOCs. Hardly a king's ransom in a £20 billion+ per year rail industry.
 

Mugby

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Where exactly does it come from? I've passed through Mountsorrel many times but never seen any sign of a quarry face anywhere.

I've also looked on Google earth and there's no sign of a quarry. Surely the stone isn't mined, is it brought in from elsewhere?
 

sharpley

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Where exactly does it come from? I've passed through Mountsorrel many times but never seen any sign of a quarry face anywhere.

I've also looked on Google earth and there's no sign of a quarry. Surely the stone isn't mined, is it brought in from elsewhere?
Mountsorrel is one of the largest quarries in Europe, its definitely on Google Earth...
 

AndrewE

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Does the conveyor run along a disused rail formation? I remember it crosses the River Soar on what looks very like a typical railway bridge...
your friend:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountsorrel_Railway
As early as 1860, there were eight-and-a-half miles of track serving the local quarries of the Mountsorrel Granite Company, now owned by Lafarge Aggregates. The line ran from the Great Central Railway at Swithland Sidings, around the quarries, over the Grand Union Canal at Mountsorrel, to the Midland Main Line at Barrow-upon-Soar.[1]

The line fell out of use in the 1950s, the track was taken up in the 1960s, and most of the route was abandoned.

Restoration

1950-built wagon No. B477060, restored as 654 for the Mountsorrel Railway project
The line between Mountsorrel and Barrow is still followed by a mineral conveyor to Barrow, where quarry rock is sorted for distribution.
The site at Mountsorrel http://heritage-centre.co.uk/visit-us/mountsorrel-railway/ is well worth a visit too.
 

DarloRich

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Just watched a cl66 and a load of yellow wagons with a load that looked like ballast from an overbridge. Could not see any markings on the side of the truck
It was near Hellifield so must have been 679B Mountsrrel-Carlisle, TOC = ZZ

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00243/2019/03/15/advanced

2 questions
Why drag low value stone all the way from Leicestershire to Carlisle. there is a rail connected quarry at Helwith Bridge.

How much rail traffic is internal stuff like this?

because Tarmac have the largest part of the contract ( I assume having assumed it on the creation and subsequent sale of Lafarge Tarmac) to supply NR with the right sort of aggregate for track ballast. Ballast isn't just random stone. It has to be of the right make up, size and shape. It is high specification ( for stone!) and quite expensive for aggregates. Pink Granite is the best apparently. It gets shipped around the country to various NR depots ( Carlisle being one) and is then used in works on the railway


From various statistical releases on the ORR website, infrastructure traffic overall (not only ballast, of course) came to just under 10% of the total 'real freight' traffic (about 0.42 billion tonne km as against 4.3 billion tonne km in the most recent quarter).

The FOCs are only marginally profitable. Most made a loss in 2016-17 but overall they made a profit of £33m on turnover of £826m in 2017-18 (i.e. <4%, nowhere near even offsetting the previous year's losses of £98m at DB Cargo, Freightliner and DRS). So infrastructure traffic might have generated (say) £3 million over 5 FOCs. Hardly a king's ransom in a £20 billion+ per year rail industry.

It is odd that there is such competition to win these contracts if it is of such minimal value to the FOC's. The NR press release suggests differently:

Network Rail said:
Network Rail’s National Delivery Service (NDS) has signed a contract with five suppliers to provide haulage for the company’s fleet of engineering trains in control period 5 (2014-2019).DB Schenker, Freightliner Heavy Haul, GBRf, Direct Rail Services and Colas Rail will provide locomotives and drivers under contracts worth more than £600m over five years........ The headline figure of the contract is based on a guaranteed volume for each supplier and includes a degree of flexibility to allow Network Rail and its five suppliers adapt to meet demand and changing circumstances. Trains covered by the contract include possession trains, high output renewals, rail head treatment trains, snow and ice treatment trains, shunting and support services.

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....ve-year-haulage-agreement-with-five-suppliers

Thanks, I was looking in the wrong place. No wonder it's not visible from the MML, it's quite some distance from the sidings!

The stone is conveyed a considerable distance to the loading point next to the MML

they used to use limestone from Horton....

Who is "they"
 

furnessvale

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they used to use limestone from Horton....
In BR days we were forced to use limestone because it was cheaper, and it was rubbish!

It was a false economy as pumping, especially under concrete sleepers reduced it to a slurry in months meaning another expensive reballasting job was needed.

Eventually, common sense returned and we were permitted to use granite again.
 

DPWH

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Where exactly does it come from? I've passed through Mountsorrel many times but never seen any sign of a quarry face anywhere.

I've also looked on Google earth and there's no sign of a quarry. Surely the stone isn't mined, is it brought in from elsewhere?

The quarry itself is quite well hidden from the surrounding roads. It is a massive hole in the ground, but you can drive past it without really noticing it because it is hidden by forested hills.

AFAIK The quarry itself is considered to be of national strategic importance, i.e. I believe it (plus Bardon Hill) are basically the biggest lumps of granite that are furthest south. Granite is heavy and so hauling it around is expensive. Buy a lorry load of granite in Kent for road construction, and a lot of the price went on transporting it from Leicestershire. It's better (cheaper) therefore to transport it from Leicestershire to Kent than from the Pennines to Kent.

But I would think that there are other sources of granite nearer to Carlisle than Leicestershire.
 

Bald Rick

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Another big source of ballast certainly used to be Glensanda near Oban. That was brought in by ship to a couple of places before being transferred to engineering trains. Not sure if it is still used.
 

furnessvale

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But I would think that there are other sources of granite nearer to Carlisle than Leicestershire.
We used to get our granite from Shap.......the best there is, but probably too expensive now, even allowing for transport costs.
 

alangla

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A lot of Scottish lines have a reddish ballast that I believe came from Cloburn near Lanark, though recent ballast seems to be grey. Is the Cloburn stone unsuitable? I know it’s not rail connected, but there’s plenty of places it could be loaded, e.g. Mossend, Millerhill
 

AndrewE

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A lot of Scottish lines have a reddish ballast that I believe came from Cloburn near Lanark, though recent ballast seems to be grey. Is the Cloburn stone unsuitable? I know it’s not rail connected, but there’s plenty of places it could be loaded, e.g. Mossend, Millerhill
Cloburn stone is excellent ballast and makes for a very attractive trackbed, especially when wet! I like to think I am on the Royal route to Scotland when I first notice it on the WCML going north.
It has been loaded onto rail at Carstairs, but I guess road costs and logistics are against it.
 

Ken H

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Depends on the rock. Siltstone and gritstone are no good, no doubt due to what they were originally formed of. Can't remember the high school geology but I think limestone's formed from coral and shellfish, which probably plays a bit part in it being so hard. Makes sense with a name like that.
its formed from the hard bits of any sea creature. its mostly calcium carbonate, similar to your bones. Dissolves in acid, which is why we get limestone pavements and caves. Even the carbon dioxide dissolved in rainwater (that makes carbonic acid - H2CO3) is enough to dissolve it.

Its also the basis of concrete
 

furnessvale

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its formed from the hard bits of any sea creature. its mostly calcium carbonate, similar to your bones. Dissolves in acid, which is why we get limestone pavements and caves. Even the carbon dioxide dissolved in rainwater (that makes carbonic acid - H2CO3) is enough to dissolve it.

Its also the basis of concrete
Indeed, it makes the strongest concrete due its specific properties. Horses for courses, as they say.
 

AndrewE

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Indeed, it makes the strongest concrete due its specific properties. Horses for courses, as they say.
Surely not? Limestone is relatively weak compared to most igneous rock and quite a lot of metamorphic ones (which is why worktops are made of marble and not limestone.) I'm certain that concrete made with granite or similar aggregate will be stronger than one made with limestone, but at least the limestone version won't get this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkali–silica_reaction which has done for a lot of concrete.
The actual mineral content of cement (after roasting and grinding then rehydration) is weird, but I just remember that Portland cement needs clay minerals in it, which is why some cement works on pure limestone or chalk have to import clay rocks of some sort!
p.s. it seems that the actual strength of the aggregate is less important than other factors: https://www.engr.psu.edu/ce/courses/ce584/concrete/library/materials/aggregate/aggregatesmain.htm says
When determining the strength of normal concrete, most concrete aggregates are several times stronger than the other components in concrete and therefore not a factor in the strength of normal strength concrete.
 
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Ken H

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Surely not? Limestone is relatively weak compared to most igneous rock and quite a lot of metamorphic ones (which is why worktops are made of marble and not limestone.) I'm certain that concrete made with granite or similar aggregate will be stronger than one made with limestone, but at least the limestone version won't get this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkali–silica_reaction which has done for a lot of concrete.
The actual mineral content of cement (after roasting and grinding then rehydration) is weird, but I just remember that Portland cement needs clay minerals in it, which is why some cement works on pure limestone or chalk have to import clay rocks of some sort!
p.s. it seems that the actual strength of the aggregate is less important than other factors: https://www.engr.psu.edu/ce/courses/ce584/concrete/library/materials/aggregate/aggregatesmain.htm says

I think we are confusing the making of cement, and the rock used in aggregate
remember, concrete = cement + sand + aggregate

you need limestone or similar to make cement. you need small stones to use as aggregate.
 

AndrewE

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I think we are confusing the making of cement, and the rock used in aggregate
remember, concrete = cement + sand + aggregate

you need limestone or similar to make cement. you need small stones to use as aggregate.
No, you are confusing a lime mortar and Portland cement. Lime putty results from slaking calcined limestone and mixing it with sand. Portland cement (which sets under water) needs clay minerals in it as well as the lime fraction. Adding aggregate to either of these gives concrete. Different aggregates have different effects on the concrete, as my link explained.
Look at the wikipedia page that Ken H linked: it says
[Smeaton] performed experiments with combinations of different limestones and additives including trass and pozzolanas[4] and did exhaustive market research on the available hydraulic limes, visiting their production sites, and noted that the "hydraulicity" of the lime was directly related to the clay content of the limestone used to make it.
 
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DarloRich

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The quarry itself is quite well hidden from the surrounding roads. It is a massive hole in the ground, but you can drive past it without really noticing it because it is hidden by forested hills.

AFAIK The quarry itself is considered to be of national strategic importance, i.e. I believe it (plus Bardon Hill) are basically the biggest lumps of granite that are furthest south. Granite is heavy and so hauling it around is expensive. Buy a lorry load of granite in Kent for road construction, and a lot of the price went on transporting it from Leicestershire. It's better (cheaper) therefore to transport it from Leicestershire to Kent than from the Pennines to Kent.

But I would think that there are other sources of granite nearer to Carlisle than Leicestershire.

You have answered your own question. There might be granite nearer Carlisle but teansporting it has to offer value. It also has to offer the same value to thise people in Kent.

Another big source of ballast certainly used to be Glensanda near Oban. That was brought in by ship to a couple of places before being transferred to engineering trains. Not sure if it is still used.

I believe some does still come from glensanda via ship. MOST comes from Leicestershire

Cloburn stone is excellent ballast and makes for a very attractive trackbed, especially when wet! I like to think I am on the Royal route to Scotland when I first notice it on the WCML going north.
It has been loaded onto rail at Carstairs, but I guess road costs and logistics are against it.

There is your answer. Double and triple handling makes little sense.
 
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