Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Mingulay]

You have four car 385s on the Dunblanes as three car ones are needed for the Edinburgh to Glasgow service due to it being restricted to seven cars max. When Queen Street is complete they will go on the mainline services to form eight car services as planned and the Dunblanes will be three cars.

This has always been the case.

Ah. Got you now!

So the whole Faster greener longer stuff Scotrail sold through all the years of misery and months of disruption , the delays to deliver a better service. Was never going to happen as Scotrail Media as I am now told is not reliable. The scotrail management in a public meeting who said 4 car for Dunblane were also just Ill informed and it was never the plan .

I see , as a passenger , I now realise I completely fooled myself that all this was to get a better rail service when in reality it was about pretending it was going to be better but in reality pretty much the same or worse. Makes perfect sense now you point it out!

 

[Chrism20]

Ah. Got you now!

So the whole Faster greener longer stuff Scotrail sold through all the years of misery and months of disruption , the delays to deliver a better service. Was never going to happen as Scotrail Media as I am now told is not reliable. The scotrail management in a public meeting who said 4 car for Dunblane were also just Ill informed and it was never the plan .

I see , as a passenger , I now realise I completely fooled myself that all this was to get a better rail service when in reality it was about pretending it was going to be better but in reality pretty much the same or worse. Makes perfect sense now you point it out!

You were told at your public meeting that you were getting 4 car 365s until the 385s were introduced.

As has already been mentioned to you several times the 385s have almost the same capacity as a 365 as the carriages are longer.

You have more capacity now with the 365s and less stops and that capacity will be pretty much maintained with the change to three car 385s.

No one has fooled you but I strongly suspect you are trying to treat people on this forum as if they were fools.

 

[Stopper]

Do Dunblanes need anything more than 3 carriages now that 40% of their load (aka the LIN/PMT passengers) have now been dumped onto a lesser service? Sounds like Dunblane got the better deal to me.

 

[scosutsut]

I've never seen anyone work out the PVR for the routes that are due to get 385s, deducting the ones that we know about length wise, and working out what that leaves for the remaining lines.

Fact remains they will have more 4 car units that they need for EG even when it goes to 8 car, and no other electric service that I am aware of has first class provision meaning these could theoretically go anywhere.

All the units haven't been delivered yet and when lines have started to see 385s be used, they have often seen shortforming / inconsistency for a number of months (certainly has been the case of North Berwicks which I use, seeming to only in the last week have stabilised to 6 car units during the peaks... after a lot of 3 car, 4 car and outright cancellations left right and centre)

So probably little solace for Dunblane commuters but if our experience is anything to go by I'd expect it to remain patchy for the next few months and hope that unit delivery, training completion and May timetable change all come together to solve the issues you are facing.

Is it crap? Yes. Are Scotrail crap at communicating? Yes. Could this have been avoided? Yes. Could it be managed better? Almost certainly yes. Is there a magic wand fix? Definitely not, unfortunately so we all have to suck it up and make choices of either use them, or find an alternative.

 

[170401]

Come May, Scotrail will have 24 4 car class 385s.They only need an absolute maximum of 16 to operate the E&G at full capacity. That leaves 8 spare sets.

From May, 5 sets (Not counting peak strengthening) will be required to operate the Edinburgh - Dunblane route. This would leave 3 spare for maintenance/standby cover if the surplus 4 car trains were used here.
It would also allow Scotrail to add a first class offer to the only 7 cities link (Stirling - Edinburgh) that doesn't currently have one.

Will logic dictate come May?

 

[InOban]

I was in Waverley on Wednesday at around 11 and the North Berwick was 6 coaches. I get the feeling that Scotrail are running the 385s in fixed formations - they're not coupling/uncoupling units during the day unless there is a fault. One less thing to go wrong.

How many units are still to be delivered? Are there still a couple in Italy? How many units will Shotts require?

 

[adrock1976]

I was in Waverley on Wednesday at around 11 and the North Berwick was 6 coaches. I get the feeling that Scotrail are running the 385s in fixed formations - they're not coupling/uncoupling units during the day unless there is a fault. One less thing to go wrong.

How many units are still to be delivered? Are there still a couple in Italy? How many units will Shotts require?

Regarding the Shotts route and basing this on the standard pattern Sprinter timetable, I believe it is 6 diagrams which (albeit unscientific) of the various observations over the years has been three of each of 156s and 158s.

 

[Terry Williams]

I was in Waverley on Wednesday at around 11 and the North Berwick was 6 coaches. I get the feeling that Scotrail are running the 385s in fixed formations - they're not coupling/uncoupling units during the day unless there is a fault. One less thing to go wrong.

How many units are still to be delivered? Are there still a couple in Italy? How many units will Shotts require?

AFAIK 385001/2 and 385101/2 are still in Italy unless of course the have very recently been dispatched to Scotland.
News of these on delivery would be very welcome, via Ashford?

 

[kilonewton]

I don’t want to trawl through 4000 posts to see where or if it was mentioned here, but is there something in Hitachi’s contracts about mileage per year per set? I say that as with the 170s on the E&G, they used to regularly split down to single units off peak. I understood that the same was to happen with the 385/1s, but as Queen St only has 1 8 car platform until the redevelopment is complete, to meet the mileage requirements, they’re running all day as 385/0-385/1.
Also, 385/1 has first class, so why would ScotRail keep running them on routes where there is no first class? ie Dunblane

 

[EdinburghTrain]

Has anyone that rides the E&G via Falkirk High regularly seen an improvement in the speed of the journey, etc?

I used to get the 6:45 Edinburgh > Queen St and the 16:45 Queen St > Edinburgh, looking at the timetable there's no (or almost) no change to the timings. I know some of it is dependant on the Stirling like being fully electrified and using 385's, but I'd have expected a little improvement.

 

[GrimShady]

Currently on a 385 in FC where the dividing doors have failed. Looks like their sitting off the vertical/come off the guide.

Not good for new units. I've seen quite a few door defects already over a few months.

 

[Esker-pades]

Has anyone that rides the E&G via Falkirk High regularly seen an improvement in the speed of the journey, etc?

I used to get the 6:45 Edinburgh > Queen St and the 16:45 Queen St > Edinburgh, looking at the timetable there's no (or almost) no change to the timings. I know some of it is dependant on the Stirling like being fully electrified and using 385's, but I'd have expected a little improvement.

The improvement will come at the May timetable change. Currently, although trains are timed for a class 385, they have additional pathing minutes so that they mirror the class 170 times. From the timetable change, those pathing minutes will be removed at the timings will go down to 40-45 minutes.

If you look on RTT detailed mode at the 17:15 Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverley for the timetable both before and after the timetable change, there is a 10 minute difference. Then look at the Allowances columns, specifically the pathing one. The current one has 11 minutes of pathing time, at practically every timing point, whilst the post-change has a single minute, between Haymarket and Waverley.

 

[Stopper]

The improvement will come at the May timetable change. Currently, although trains are timed for a class 385, they have additional pathing minutes so that they mirror the class 170 times. From the timetable change, those pathing minutes will be removed at the timings will go down to 40-45 minutes.

If you look on RTT detailed mode at the 17:15 Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverley for the timetable both before and after the timetable change, there is a 10 minute difference. Then look at the Allowances columns, specifically the pathing one. The current one has 11 minutes of pathing time, at practically every timing point, whilst the post-change has a single minute, between Haymarket and Waverley.

The 7:00 GLQ-EDB will take around 10 minutes between Haymarket and Edinburgh. It gets to Haymarket quicker but slows down to arrive at the exact same time as before at Waverley.

 

[Esker-pades]

The 7:00 GLQ-EDB will take around 10 minutes between Haymarket and Edinburgh. It gets to Haymarket quicker but slows down to arrive at the exact same time as before at Waverley.

That is an anomaly compared to the normal journey times.

 

[43096]

Maybe they should have sent you a 365. Which in all probability would have broken down. The plan was not to have 385s on the Dunblane services till May. That has now been advanced to now. Due to their poor reliability. Meaning the planned training of staff has not been completed fully. So it's either new train with a wonky door or an ailing wonky train. You pay your money or I hope you do and take your chance.

So let's get this right....
ScotRail have withdrawn the 365s because they are "unreliable".
ScotRail have not completed the necessary staff training on the 385s.
ScotRail have replaced the 365s with 385s.
ScotRail are cancelling services because haven't got enough trained staff.

To me that says:
ScotRail's fleet maintenance is appalling if they can't get the 365s to function properly. They are not inherently unreliable - as proven by the Great Northern 365s over many years.
ScotRail's training planning is utterly inept (see also HSTs).
ScotRail don't give a stuff about the punters because if they did either a) they would get the training done before the 365s were stopped and/or b) they would have resolved the maintenance issues with the 365s.

Isn't the MDTR* wonderful?


* MDTR = Modern, Dynamic, Thrusting Railway. An ironic term coined by the late Neil Morgan that perfectly describes the shambles that is the modern railway.

 

[adrock1976]

Maybe they should have sent you a 365. Which in all probability would have broken down. The plan was not to have 385s on the Dunblane services till May. That has now been advanced to now. Due to their poor reliability. Meaning the planned training of staff has not been completed fully. So it's either new train with a wonky door or an ailing wonky train. You pay your money or I hope you do and take your chance.

The point is, the Class 385s are brand new. As some of the trains in that class have been rigorously tested, there is not supposed to be any wonky doors at all. It seems that somewhere along the way, somebody has not took pride in the quality of the workmanship in making sure that the doors are not wonky.

No wonder the country has ended up in the terrible state it is in nowadays.

 

[anthannan]

The point is, the Class 385s are brand new. As some of the trains in that class have been rigorously tested, there is not supposed to be any wonky doors at all. It seems that somewhere along the way, somebody has not took pride in the quality of the workmanship in making sure that the doors are not wonky.

No wonder the country has ended up in the terrible state it is in nowadays.

It would be interesting to know where the units with 'faulty' doors were built? I've no doubt that this issue will be resolved though.

 

[SC318250]

Delivery paths and light loco paths in Tue-Fri now until 19th May
Suspect we will see possibly 3 per week now to ramp up deliveries

 

[PHILIPE]

Delivery paths and light loco paths in Tue-Fri now until 19th May
Suspect we will see possibly 3 per week now to ramp up deliveries

The paths may not be activated though

 

[800001]

The paths may not be activated though

The paths to keep an eye in are the ones that feature a move from Tyne Yard or Tees Yard. Other paths are spare 'just incase'.

 

[SC318250]

The paths to keep an eye in are the ones that feature a move from Tyne Yard or Tees Yard. Other paths are spare 'just incase'.

Paths in for light loco to factory Tue-Fri until May

 

[gordonjahn]

Come May, Scotrail will have 24 4 car class 385s.They only need an absolute maximum of 16 to operate the E&G at full capacity. That leaves 8 spare sets.

However much I can't see it happening, nor the need for it if the stoppers can do the run in 42 minutes, is there not still the desire to run Glasgow / Edinburgh nonstops to be able to advertise very low journey times? Two 8-coach fast trains an hour each way would consume utilise the remaining 8 units.

The EGIP Final Business Case document from 2013 (by Ernst and Young) said:

With the introduction of Phase 2 in 2025, the fastest journey time is expected to fall to 37 minutes, with the Edinburgh Glasgow via Falkirk services also seeing an increase in train frequency from 4tph to 6tph.

 

[youngac]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G87186/2019/03/18/advanced

Looks like the 385 running on the Cathcart Circle this morning may have had a few problems...

 

[Altnabreac]

However much I can't see it happening, nor the need for it if the stoppers can do the run in 42 minutes, is there not still the desire to run Glasgow / Edinburgh nonstops to be able to advertise very low journey times? Two 8-coach fast trains an hour each way would consume utilise the remaining 8 units.

The EGIP Final Business Case document from 2013 (by Ernst and Young) said:

Broadly speaking you need Almond / Dalmeny Chord to be built to run the 2tph extra non stop services.

Until that is built they won’t be running those extra services. Almond Chord is A: Uncertain as it isn’t yet committed and B: Unlikely to have stock allocated as yet.

 

[jw]

I thought the 6tph had been dropped in favour of 4tph operating at 8 car length?

 

[gsnedders]

I thought the 6tph had been dropped in favour of 4tph operating at 8 car length?

As part of the current EGIP, yes. Currently expected growth projections for Edinburgh–Glasgow traffic mean 6tph will have to happen within another few decades, however.

 

[Steven_G]

So, until Glasgow QSt is ready for 8 cars....where do the 16 4 cars for that go when they arrive? Because they are currently using someone else's 3 cars until it's ready.

 

[scosutsut]

We've seen 4 car on North Berwicks, usually in place of scheduled 2x3 385s. Touch wood it's become less common of late.

 

[Steven_G]

So, until Glasgow QSt is ready for 8 cars....where do the 16 4 cars for that go when they arrive? Because they are currently using someone else's 3 cars until it's ready.

Just hurry up with the HST's, the last piece in the puzzle.

 

[Highlandspring]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G87186/2019/03/18/advanced

Looks like the 385 running on the Cathcart Circle this morning may have had a few problems...

This was actually reactionary delay because of 2F09 0713 Cumbernauld - Dalmuir having door problems at Airbles, units 320304 and 320311.