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Reigate stabling sidings

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Deepgreen

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I have noticed that the stabling sidings at Reigate have been comprehensively cleared of vegetation (up to small tree size), revealing the full length of the main siding and the shorter one. Both are heavily rusted and with conductor rails. The four car red limit light marker is still in situ on the longer siding (used by some Southern workings to reverse/stable). Does anyone know if there is a plan to reinstate more capacity here?
 
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coppercapped

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It could be because so many of our correspondents seem to live in the northwest of the country and therefore the density of posters in the south is lower and such matters fall through the cracks? <( ;)
 

godfreycomplex

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I have heard rumblings but nothing more
Often vegetation clearance can occur without any view to clear lines to traffic, but more to mitigate for low adhesion/root damage to trackbed and signalling equipment e.t.c.
On the other hand it could well be paving the way for a reopening as you suggest
 

JonathanH

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I can't see any traffic need for reinstatement.

Practically, units can only be scheduled to leave in 4-car formation as they would need to shunt via platform 2. There is only one empty working to / from Reigate to start the service and two to close it and so one unit could be accommodated within the currently available siding.

The only recent use (since the May 2018 timetable change) has been to accommodate units during times of disruption when they miss a trip to Victoria and back.
 

big all

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who can remember there used to be a small drivers depot there and an up siding with a ground frame:D
 

30909

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Oh dear I remember when there were Up and Down sidings with third rail and 4 LAVs and 2 Bils would be stabled there or use them to refuge when the Reading - Redhill trains conflicted or the "Birkenhead" to Kent Coast, freights, parcels and the Meldon Quarry ballasts with a Q1 had to pass though. They were also used when the pickup goods and coal trains accessed the down sidings and goods shed. Yes I'm very old!
 

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JonathanH

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Yes, but that would be crazy in the light of the fact that there is an outline desire to ultimately use that land for a 12-car bay platform.

Clearly that desire is unfunded but as part of building up a case, it might be useful to inspect the land in a way you can't if it is in undergrowth. Whatever, it wouldn't make sense to use the land as a car park and there is no reason at this stage to remove what is left of the useable siding.
 

tsr

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There have been various projects in the area simply to remove vegetation, without any motive relating to reopening infrastructure. There is obviously quite a considerable backlog, so any clearance can look very noticeable indeed.

The remainder of the sidings, beyond the 4 coach limit on one of them, have been signed out of use due to the condition of the track, so unless track work does take place, nothing’s likely to reopen. There is also no approved Authorised Walking Route for drivers to leave the sidings on foot, so any stabling of trains would need to wait for that to be dealt with. It’s always been a bit of an oversight, in my opinion, anyway.

There have, however, been a lot of rumblings about GTR wanting to berth more stock somewhere in the Redhill area for some time, certainly the last year or two. I’m not absolutely sure of the latest news, but at one point (after the Platform 0 works at Redhill) they were looking at seeing if they could put any new sidings on the Up side there. I have a feeling this would have been less effective than reinvigorating the Loco Sidings and other infrastructure on the Down side, all of which would seem more readily usable, and perhaps there turned out not to be an immediate need anyway, as not a lot appears to have happened.

I’m still wondering what the long-term plan is for Betchworth as well. The ground frame and siding are present, although clipped and padlocked out of use. The ground frame actually had a small handful of nighttime test trains over it, about a year or so ago.
 

Deepgreen

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I passed Reigate a couple of days ago and there is now a pile of new rails by the sidings. Something's up. I wonder if it would be practical to provide an entry to the sidings at the Redhill end? Obviously this would involve significant point-work and some signalling modifications, but it would get round the four car shunt restriction in the platform. It might later be possible to adapt the new arrangement to provide the twelve car platform, etc. Of course, all this assumes any sort of structured longer-term planning from NR, which makes me doubt it. Given the ludicrous amount of time it took to get the single re-laid Dorking (Main) down siding into use a few years ago, it will probably be a very long time before anything significant occurs.

Betchworth is my local station. I have never seen the crossover used, as, if there is disruption it's always the case that buses or taxis are provided rather than provide extra staff to work the ground frame. Unless something very unexpected happens with the quarry site (and the siding), there can surely be no use for the crossover.
 

big all

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as an aside
crossovers where required every so often for emergency/ engineers use and where 25 years ago dictated to be perhaps a maximum say 8 miles or what ever apart
from memory pre 1995 when i left redhill depot emergency crossovers where betchworth 'west off dorking town/west 'east off golmshall platform just after chilworth and between shalford juction and the first tunnel
 
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JonathanH

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I passed Reigate a couple of days ago and there is now a pile of new rails by the sidings. Something's up. I wonder if it would be practical to provide an entry to the sidings at the Redhill end? Obviously this would involve significant point-work and some signalling modifications, but it would get round the four car shunt restriction in the platform. It might later be possible to adapt the new arrangement to provide the twelve car platform, etc. Of course, all this assumes any sort of structured longer-term planning from NR, which makes me doubt it.

Enhancements such as turnouts to new sidings don't "just happen" on a whim - new line is most likely to be connected to maintenance - e.g. replacing a stretch of rail that is damaged.

The work connected with an extra platform at Reigate requires material changes to the trackwork and removes parking spaces so isn't trivial.

They replaced the level crossing (at road level) at Reigate over the weekend of 27/28 October. The next engineering work closure through Reigate (Guildford to Redhill / Purley to Horley) is Sunday 10 March but clearly that could just be routine work.
 

Class 170101

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If more parking is needed at Reigate or the same amount of parking on a smaller site is it capable of taking a double deck or triple deck parking structure?
 

JonathanH

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If more parking is needed at Reigate or the same amount of parking on a smaller site is it capable of taking a double deck or triple deck parking structure?

That's the sort of thing the locals won't like although I think the ramps would take away too much car parking space in any case and so long as Lowery are at the far end it isn't practical either.
 
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Deepgreen

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Enhancements such as turnouts to new sidings don't "just happen" on a whim - new line is most likely to be connected to maintenance - e.g. replacing a stretch of rail that is damaged.

The work connected with an extra platform at Reigate requires material changes to the trackwork and removes parking spaces so isn't trivial.

They replaced the level crossing (at road level) at Reigate over the weekend of 27/28 October. The next engineering work closure through Reigate (Guildford to Redhill / Purley to Horley) is Sunday 10 March but clearly that could just be routine work.
No, indeed - a "whim" wasn't mentioned. However, there is now a pile of brand new rail lengths stacked next to the points to the sidings at Reigate, suggesting more than just a single rail replacement. It has also not been claimed that the bay road work at Reigate would be "trivial", but it is unlikely to happen within the next ten years. My point was also that, IF improvements to the existing stabling sidings at Reigate are proposed, it would perhaps be possible to allow 12 car movements to/from the reinstated/enhanced sidings by providing an entrance to the sidings at the Redhill end.
There seems to be no known work here, so I'll monitor when I pass the site.
 

Minstral25

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The Reigate platform 3 enhancement is now part of the Croydon expansion scheme as the £61m estimate to create the platform has not been able to get funding from elsewhere. This includes buying local properties for access, additional power supplies (between Redhill and Reigate as 12 coach trains couldn't run on current power supply apparently), full re-signalling and building a new all purpose car park (with lifts to platforms).

Hence I'd agree that any vegetation clearance and rail storage is just because it got round to be Reigate's turn to be tidied up
 

JonathanH

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£61m seems a lot of money - I'm not surprised that can't be funded on its own as there is no way the market from Reigate to London Bridge is worth that much.

What is the benefit : cost ratio at that price?

Benefits
* No need to split/join trains at Redhill any more (this must be the major justification)
* Through train from Reigate to London Bridge and Thameslink meets demand from Reigate (if not to Reigate)
* More efficient use of 700s by saving one unit relative to the Bedford to Gatwick service
* Possible longer off peak trains from Redhill to Victoria
* Replacement of signalling at Reigate needs to happen anyway
* Better parking arrangements at Reigate
* Less disruption caused by services at Reigate blocking platform 2
* Greater timetable flexibility

Costs
* Infrastructure cost
* Loss of through trains from Reigate to Victoria
* Loss of 4tph service from Bedford to Gatwick Airport

What have I missed?
 

Minstral25

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£61m seems a lot of money - I'm not surprised that can't be funded on its own as there is no way the market from Reigate to London Bridge is worth that much.

I wouldn't be so sure on GTR's figures 70% of passengers from Reigate go London Bridge/Thameslink and that's quite a pool from 1.7m passengers per year. Even so it is a gold plated plan with every desire like new footbridges with lifts etc. new car parks and is unlikely to break any BCR records.

Pretty sure the Victoria service would be rerouted to Horsham if it happens. It really is only going to happen as an outlying part of the East Croydon scheme if at all.
 

Deepgreen

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The Reigate platform 3 enhancement is now part of the Croydon expansion scheme as the £61m estimate to create the platform has not been able to get funding from elsewhere. This includes buying local properties for access, additional power supplies (between Redhill and Reigate as 12 coach trains couldn't run on current power supply apparently), full re-signalling and building a new all purpose car park (with lifts to platforms).

Hence I'd agree that any vegetation clearance and rail storage is just because it got round to be Reigate's turn to be tidied up

It isn't "storage", it's a pile of brand new rails recently delivered to site by the sidings' connection to the westbound main line. I could understand the tidying supposition better if the single (part) siding that is used had been cleared, but the whole site has been, even though the other two sidings haven't seen use for decades. Anyway, it's clear that nothing significant is on the cards according to those here who would know, so I'll simply watch developments.
 

big all

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what the rails are for can be may things that will be hinted on by type length and volume
they can be laid on one road in preperation for a rail change on that road or the other road to be relaid then leverd or lifted over
they can be to replace switches for plain track
they can be replacement conductor rail or to power further sections off the siding
they could also be to replace rails in the sidings
could also be a few spare lengths strategically place
and the power source for the reigate branch is the tp [track parallel]hut at redhill and indeed more than 8 cars blows the sub out
tp hut clearly visible in this picture off a 166 leaving redhill in the fork between the down line
 
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Minstral25

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Rumour has been heard that GTR intend to stable some units at Reigate so that stock doesn't have to come through Gatwick during the rebuilding works of that station due to start soon, so maybe this is enabling work for that to happen? Can't think why as Reigate station sidings could only hold two single units at most which would not be enough?
 

387star

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Was reigate ever intended for Thameslink
But for those services and the tonbridge, (gwr aside)) redhill is almost exclusively thameslink served
 

JonathanH

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Was reigate ever intended for Thameslink
But for those services and the tonbridge, (gwr aside)) redhill is almost exclusively thameslink served

No, but there is a outline plan to swap the destination of the Bedford to Gatwick and Victoria to Reigate services if a new platform is built at Reigate, giving Reigate a direct link to London Bridge, enabling longer trains to run from Redhill to Victoria and the removal of splitting at Redhill improving journey times from Earlswood to Salfords (at the cost of through services from Reigate to Victoria).

At the moment the last two arrivals from Victoria at Reigate and first departure from Reigate run empty to and from elsewhere. You could arguably stable the units at Reigate overnight instead of Gatwick or Tilgate Sidings.

The morning train currently comes from the sidings at Gatwick. This requires Gatwick platforms 1-3 to be available at c.0520 when it leaves. If those platforms are going to be under possession for longer, the unit would need to come from somewhere else.
 
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RichardKing

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Rumour has been heard that GTR intend to stable some units at Reigate so that stock doesn't have to come through Gatwick during the rebuilding works of that station due to start soon, so maybe this is enabling work for that to happen? Can't think why as Reigate station sidings could only hold two single units at most which would not be enough?

Is there anymore information surrounding these upgrade works at Gatwick? This is the first I've heard about it.
 

big all

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are we talking 8 or 12 from reigate ??
reigate down platform is about a six maybe nearly 7
 

JonathanH

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are we talking 8 or 12 from reigate ??
reigate down platform is about a six maybe nearly 7

No, platform 2 is regarded as long enough only for four coaches. Platform 1 may well be slightly longer. Official lengths are 85 metres for platform 2 (down) and 171 metres for platform 1 (up).

Any redevelopment at Reigate would add a 12-car platform but it is not funded.

Is there anymore information surrounding these upgrade works at Gatwick? This is the first I've heard about it.

The concourse works at Gatwick appear to have received the go ahead from Crawley Borough Council this week.

https://planningregister.crawley.gov.uk/Planning/Display/CR/2018/0273/FUL

https://planningregister.crawley.gov.uk/Document/Download?module=PLA&recordNumber=43233&planId=369360&imageId=281&isPlan=False&fileName=DN_CR20180273FUL(2).pdf

I'm sure Network Rail will confirm what is going on on Thursday evening if asked.

https://www.rrdrua.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Agenda-for-RRDRUA-AGM-28-03-2019-v2.pdf
 
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big all

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years ago when i first joined the railway i was about 16 and a bit so 1970 because i was too young to join the footplate as you needed to be 18 to do shift work
any way i was on an experimental sceme called job rotation trainee the idea was a quick route to management by spending some time in a small then a big station and in a signal box
any way whilst at reigate as a porter on the odd occasion when a 8 car would shunt on the down platform the rear cab would be under the foot bridge give or take a few feet
 
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