5BEL

[apinnard]

I know this is a touchy subject for some, especially after Bruce sold the 4CIG to the Trust years ago, but was wondering if anybody knows how the rebuild is coming along?

 

[HaggisBotherer]

http://brightonbelle.com/news

 

[eastwestdivide]

Better information at http://brightonbelle.com/future
from which:

When will it re-enter service?
The latest expectation is for testing on the rails in spring 2019. When the systems and their wiring are all in place and static testing yields perfect results (don’t forget we are replacing all the electrical ‘go’ gear on a 1930s train with reliable stuff from a later train), and when the interior fit is complete, the train will go off to Eastleigh for testing on the third rail. This process might take three months or more, so the earliest any public runs could be offered would be summer 2019.
After some commercial test running, charter and public runs will start. This could be August 2019 – watch these pages for updates.

 

[big all]

if its got cig bogies and i assume electrical gear i wonder iff they will wire it to be compatible with a 27way jumper leaving it open for use with other southern units edls and push pull cromptons

 

[43096]

if its got cig bogies and i assume electrical gear i wonder iff they will wire it to be compatible with a 27way jumper leaving it open for use with other southern units edls and push pull cromptons

And more importantly it would make it compatible with the GBRf 73/9s for use away from the stabiliser rail.

 

[big all]

brighton bell on the west highland line

 

[HaggisBotherer]

if its got cig bogies and i assume electrical gear i wonder iff they will wire it to be compatible with a 27way jumper leaving it open for use with other southern units edls and push pull cromptons

If you look at the pictures on the web site, you won't need to wonder. Look next to the horrendous modern headlights on the Belle end...

 

[big all]

i did but it was on tressles and no jumpers as you say modern lights but in the paragraph above mentions the cig bogies

 

[HaggisBotherer]

i did but it was on tressles and no jumpers as you say modern lights but in the paragraph above mentions the cig bogies

You 'wondered' about 27 way jumpers. You clearly still haven't looked closely enough, despite my telling you exactly where to look!

 

[big all]

they will be at high level to be fully compatible with with 51/57/63 stock plus 33s and 73s
they could be at low level to keep the appearance clean but require a special cable and a protective route and securing to bring it up past the buffer or central bar if used

 

[Journeyman]

There's been so many changes made to the Belle that I'm really not convinced that much original stuff is left. Changing the 3rd class from 2+2 to 2+1 is a huge alteration, and the front end looks grim with those massive lights. I have no doubt it'll be popular, but I'll give it a miss myself.

 

[big all]

ok just realized you can increase the picture size and it looks like a high level round 27way jumper socket in brown so could work using the other loco/units high level jumper but may need extension air brake and main res pipes for connecting to units unless the full works are fitted high level later

also interesting to note its set up for loco haulage as its fitted with electric train heat jumpers

 

[HaggisBotherer]

There's been so many changes made to the Belle that I'm really not convinced that much original stuff is left. Changing the 3rd class from 2+2 to 2+1 is a huge alteration, and the front end looks grim with those massive lights. I have no doubt it'll be popular, but I'll give it a miss myself.

I totally agree. Truly a Frankenstein's monster, but each to their own.

ok just realized you can increase the picture size and it looks like a high level round 27way jumper socket in brown

Hurrah, got there at last.

but may need extension air brake and main res pipes for connecting to units

I strongly suspect the only thing the Belle ends will be connecting to is locos, although extension pipes have commonly been used for decades when coupling 400 series units and SR DEMUs to anything that isn't a 400 series unit, DEMU, 33/1, 73, 07, 09 and the 03s, 04s and 08s that were fitted with high level brake pipes.

 

[pdeaves]

There's been so many changes made to the Belle that I'm really not convinced that much original stuff is left.

It's not really a restoration but 're-engineering' like 57s, 73/9s, etc. To enjoy it, think of it as a modern train that looks a bit old rather than an old train!

 

[Journeyman]

It's not really a restoration but 're-engineering' like 57s, 73/9s, etc. To enjoy it, think of it as a modern train that looks a bit old rather than an old train!

This is precisely why I don't think I'll enjoy it. While I appreciate there's had to be a lot of compromises to get a third-rail EMU back on the main line, I think there's been far too many compromises, and it's about as authentic as a re-engined Deltic would be. Not only is the traction equipment completely different, the front end is different, the bogies are different, the seating layout is different, the kitchens are in different places...practically nothing is the same, besides the livery and the interior panelling.

I appreciate it'll be popular for the premium dining market, but personally I have no interest in that.

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

Look next to the horrendous modern headlights on the Belle end

It's either the modern lights and a Pullman crest; or basic lights and a yellow end. I certainly know which one I'd prefer to look at...

 

[Journeyman]

It's either the modern lights and a Pullman crest; or basic lights and a yellow end. I certainly know which one I'd prefer to look at...

Call me weird, but my favourite Belle livery is the odd blue/grey arrangement they carried in their final few years.

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

Call me weird, but my favourite Belle livery is the odd blue/grey arrangement they carried in their final few years.

Sacrilege! Next you'll be saying that you wouldn't mind if they took Kippers off the menu.

 

[HaggisBotherer]

It's either the modern lights and a Pullman crest; or basic lights and a yellow end. I certainly know which one I'd prefer to look at...

The original end and a small yellow panel, at least it would have retained one small amount of originality from when it was in service. Plus, if required a removable high-intensity headlight on one of the lamp brackets or inside the secondman's window.

(not my photo)

There's Pullman crests all down the side, so I don't really see why it's so important to have the one on the front as well? It's not as if it looks remotely similar to anything else currently on the network.

FWIW my favourite BB liveries were umber and cream with the SYP, then the blue/grey, then the original umber/cream. It wasn't exactly a handsome beast before, but now the poor thing has a face that only a mother could love.

Still, I've no doubt that the vast majority of those who will want, and can afford, to ride on it won't know a Belle end from a ... well ... bell end.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Sacrilege! Next you'll be saying that you wouldn't mind if they took Kippers off the menu.

I fear Sir Laurence could be turning in his grave should he do so.....

 

[HaggisBotherer]

Sacrilege! Next you'll be saying that you wouldn't mind if they took Kippers off the menu.

I fear Sir Laurence could be turning in his grave should he do so.....

Do you honestly imagine that the champagne & canapes set who will ride on the new version would want to be served kippers? Seriously?

More like frosted quinoa dumplings with a coffee foam...

 

[big all]

so so typical off the southern make do and mend
1915 ish underframes from scrapped coaches for nols and subs
scrapped subs coaches and underframes for epbs
scrapped london and coulsdon overhead motor coaches southern bogie brake vans
mk1 ones recycled for reps and tcs
epbs and hastings to make tadpoles
nelsons scrapped to be marlin and manta long rail trains
sub motors rewired with weak feild and used on 455s same motors on many br southern units and approaching a century old now
rep motor coach power equipment recycled to 5 car more modern units
so a bel with 45 year old bogies and and electrical equipment fits the bill perfectly

 

[AM9]

Given that on the BML today, the nominal 750V is specified to run with a permanent voltage (as in longer than surges/transients) of up to 900V. If it runs on the BML today, sharing the supply with a modern fleet with virtually every train running on regen, are the refurbed electrics and salvaged MKI bogies suitable for that higher voltage?

 

[Journeyman]

Given that on the BML today, the nominal 750V is specified to run with a permanent voltage (as in longer than surges/transients) of up to 900V. If it runs on the BML today, sharing the supply with a modern fleet with virtually every train running on regen, are the refurbed electrics and salvaged MKI bogies suitable for that higher voltage?

Most of the Bournemouth line was electrified at 850v, and VEPs and CIGs operated over it regularly with no issues. It caused problems with older stock, though. SUBs and pre-war units could only operate on 850v sections if the heating circuits were isolated.

So...given that the Belle's new(ish) traction equipment comes off a CIG, the higher voltage shouldn't be a problem.

 

[big all]

indeed from pirbright junction south from memory
buuuuttt are they changing the heating circuits on the bel ??

 

[43096]

indeed from pirbright junction south from memory
buuuuttt are they changing the heating circuits on the bel ??

They will have to if they ever want to plug the ETH jumpers into anything else.

 

[Journeyman]

indeed from pirbright junction south from memory
buuuuttt are they changing the heating circuits on the bel ??

Many of the BEL's coaches have been used as loco hauled stock, so I suspect many have modified heating circuits already.

 

[Cowley]

I should think that if we’re worrying about it on here, then they’ve quite possibly thought of these things themselves...

 

[eastwestdivide]

so so typical off the southern make do and mend
...
so a bel with 45 year old bogies and and electrical equipment fits the bill perfectly

Spot on, nail on the head etc. etc.
I'm really looking forward to seeing it out and about. Take it for what it is, a modern re-creation of the Brighton Belle using some of the original parts.
After all, Flying Scotsman and Tornado aren't "authentic" either. (Discuss)

 

[Journeyman]

Spot on, nail on the head etc. etc.
I'm really looking forward to seeing it out and about. Take it for what it is, a modern re-creation of the Brighton Belle using some of the original parts.

It just involves far too many changes and compromises for my liking. I can think of the following things that just spoil it too much for me...

• Building a new kitchen in one of the third class parlour cars, completely changing the layout
• Relocating a toilet in one of the power cars, again completely changing the layout
• Converting all the third class vehicles from 2+2 seating to 2+1, which changes the interior a great deal and to me removes a lot of the authenticity. This is supposedly to make meal service easier, but full meals were served on the trains in the past, and the seating layout was never a problem
• The huge ugly lights on the driving ends - there must have been a better way to do this
• Six-car rather than five-car unit

That said, it's pretty much the only Southern Electric unit of that vintage that could ever run on the main line again, for several reasons. For a start, the vehicles are steel-framed and very substantially constructed, where the surviving 2-BIL and 4-COR vehicles are wooden-framed and banned from the main line for safety reasons. Next, most Southern Electric units are fairly ordinary, and much as many of us are fond of CIGs and VEPs, they have next to no appeal to normals, who won't dig deep into their wallets to travel on one. Pullmans are a big draw for the premium dining market - it's not something that enthusiasts go for, but clearly there's plenty of people who will fork out the cash for it. If you're going to run something on the main line regularly, it needs to make money, and I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that it will, especially if they're going after the luxury day out market, with coach connections to prime tourist locations.

After all, Flying Scotsman and Tornado aren't "authentic" either. (Discuss)

I suppose they're not, but they do at least look like they are! Personally, and I appreciate this is a minority view, Flying Scotsman doesn't really do anything for me, and I can't understand why it's venerated more than any other steamer from the same era. It feels very, very over-hyped to me, and I find something like a rebuilt Bulleid Pacific to be just as good, if not better.

Tornado, of course, was a stunning achievement, and has inspired a lot of other people who want to recreate long-lost classes. If anyone wants to drop a few million on a recreated Bulleid Leader, let me know!