Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[R G NOW.]

I find it odd, that your pacers up north have bus seating, the ones Arriva trains wales had(TFW), had the same style seating as on a class 150.

 

[sprinterguy]

I find it odd, that your pacers up north have bus seating, the ones Arriva trains wales had(TFW), had the same style seating as on a class 150.

That's because Valley Lines performed a much higher quality refurbishment of their Pacers! There are in fact four different types of seating in Northern Pacers:

The original bus benches on ex-First North Western units,
3+2 low-backed individual seating in former Merseyrail sponsored units also operated by that franchise,
2+2 individual high backed "coach" seating fitted to all the former Northern Spirit units,
and 2+2 Richmond seating which was fitted to the class 144 fleet when they were refurbished by Arriva Trains Northern.

 

[ed1971]

I seem to recall reading that the PRM regulations were inspired by the previous Labour government rather than the EU. I have some interest in railways abroad and watch Youtube videos of them. The German VT2E DEMUs are very similar to Pacers, but have bogies and proper doors. However, take a look at this video at 1min 12 secs:

. It shows a step entrance with a centre handrail at the carriage ends which would prevent a wheelchair user from boarding; no PRM here!
The 142s were built like this, but have been modified over the years with space provided for a wheelchair at one end. Of course PRM is about a lot more than just wheelchair user provision.

 

[LOL The Irony]

According to Wikipedia (I know, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong) a PRM converted 150 and a 2 car 195 have the exact same number of seats, 123.

Remember that a 150 has 3+2 seating and a 195 has 2+2 seating & tables. 2+2 seating also means more seats used & more standing room, not to mention a 195 is 8 meters longer than a 150. All this "rather stand on a pacer" stuff is nonsense.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I seem to recall reading that the PRM regulations were inspired by the previous Labour government rather than the EU. I have some interest in railways abroad and watch Youtube videos of them. The German VT2E DEMUs are very similar to Pacers, but have bogies and proper doors. However, take a look at this video at 1min 12 secs:

. It shows a step entrance with a centre handrail at the carriage ends which would prevent a wheelchair user from boarding; no PRM here!
The 142s were built like this, but have been modified over the years with space provided for a wheelchair at one end. Of course PRM is about a lot more than just wheelchair user provision.

The doors at the centre don't have the poles, the step is still an issue though. Those units do look like a better version of a Pacer.

 

[Mathew S]

Remember that a 150 has 3+2 seating and a 195 has 2+2 seating & tables. 2+2 seating also means more seats used & more standing room, not to mention a 195 is 8 meters longer than a 150. All this "rather stand on a pacer" stuff is nonsense.

That's definitely true - the number of unoccupied seats on 3+2 seated trains (e.g. the 319s I use everyday) is invariably fewer than the number of free seats that said people choose not to sit in.

 

[anamyd]

I seem to recall reading that the PRM regulations were inspired by the previous Labour government rather than the EU. I have some interest in railways abroad and watch Youtube videos of them. The German VT2E DEMUs are very similar to Pacers, but have bogies and proper doors. However, take a look at this video at 1min 12 secs:

. It shows a step entrance with a centre handrail at the carriage ends which would prevent a wheelchair user from boarding; no PRM here!
The 142s were built like this, but have been modified over the years with space provided for a wheelchair at one end. Of course PRM is about a lot more than just wheelchair user provision.

I think the EU requires PRM for new build only, whereas the UK requires even old/older trains to be compliant by 2020, but new build from as early as 1998, although that means that for example one 170 subclass needed one step modification, but anything else "non-compliant" but intended to be, was exempted on the basis the builder was having to look 22 years into the future. Anything pre-privatisation however needed all those mods that are still being done at the moment, due to having been completely missing many required features. It will be interesting to see the future of 144-012; it is the only PRM "accepted" Pacer and it would be a shame if it was just scrapped. The significant downsize of the water tank has been said to actually slightly improve the ride quality; the degree of "slightness" however I'm not sure!

 

[anamyd]

I find it odd, that your pacers up north have bus seating, the ones Arriva trains wales had(TFW), had the same style seating as on a class 150.

what sprinterguy said. I think it was done under the Cardiff Railway Company (Prism Rail) "Valley Lines" franchise. The Wales & West (National Express Group) 158s were fitted with similar Chapman seats in the late 90s (which they retained until 2011-2012 in the case of the ATW / TfW units kept post-2006), which led to the 150s and 153s getting the same seats. Although Prism Rail and National Express Group were different companies, the former was purchased by the latter in July 2000, so that might have something to do with it.

 

[SteveyBee131]

...The Wales & West (National Express Group) 158s were fitted with similar Chapman seats in the late 90s (which they retained until 2011-2012)...

There were a few that ended up with Northern (158815, 816, 817, 842 and 843 at least) that had Chapman seats, I think they still do (for the moment at least). But that's not exactly on topic so feel free to tell me 'be quiet'

 

[anamyd]

There were a few that ended up with Northern (158815, 816, 817, 842 and 843 at least) that had Chapman seats, I think they still do (for the moment at least). But that's not exactly on topic so feel free to tell me 'be quiet'

Those are some of the 16 ex-Arriva Trains Wales 158s displaced from their full acquisition of the entire 27x 175 production run in late 2006 and creating the current 24x 158 (818 to 841) ATW/TfW 158 fleet which in 2010-2011 had their Chapman seats replaced with Grammer seats as part of their major refurbishment. The Chapman seats had been installed by Wales & West in the late 90s. At least some of the higher numbered of the 16 sent off-lease from ATW in late 2006, up to 854 or something like that, went to East Midlands Trains.

But yes, Pacers! When do you reckon the first one will actually be withdrawn from Northern...?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Those are some of the 16 ex-Arriva Trains Wales 158s displaced from their full acquisition of the entire 27x 175 production run in late 2006 and creating the current 24x 158 (818 to 841) ATW/TfW 158 fleet which in 2010-2011 had their Chapman seats replaced with Grammer seats as part of their major refurbishment. The Chapman seats had been installed by Wales & West in the late 90s. At least some of the higher numbered of the 16 sent off-lease from ATW in late 2006, up to 854 or something like that, went to East Midlands Trains.

But yes, Pacers! When do you reckon the first one will actually be withdrawn from Northern...?

Just after the May Timetable.

 

[Killingworth]

Just after the May Timetable.

We must have reached a point where any units requiring significant expenditure to keep in service will be shunted into a siding to be cannibalised to keep the rest going - if that's not already happening.

 

[anamyd]

Just after the May Timetable.

They should come to South Wales

 

[John Taylor]

Where is 144012 usually found?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Where is 144012 usually found?

Seems to be usually on routes out of Sheffield, or stabled there. I have seen it on both Sheffield to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Wakefield Kirkgate in recent weeks too.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Seems to be usually on routes out of Sheffield, or stabled there. I have seen it on both Sheffield to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Wakefield Kirkgate in recent weeks too.

Agreed - it seems fairly frequently on the Sheffield/Huddersfield and also the Sheffield/Mexborough/Conisborough/Doncaster/Adwick etc

 

[PHILIPE]

Anywhere where the rest of the fleet works. Leeds and area also.

Briefly most places East of the Pennines but not north of York

 

[NorthernSpirit]

We must have reached a point where any units requiring significant expenditure to keep in service will be shunted into a siding to be cannibalised to keep the rest going - if that's not already happening.

Some of the 142's that I've travelled on over the past month seem to be the ones that will end up getting cannibalised first. On one its sounded as if the engines were about to pack in and on another it seemed to struggle over Bradley Junction.

 

[ed1971]

Recently I have travelled a couple of times from Wigan to Manchester on the Atherton line. It was a weekday and this last week there were plenty of Class 142s still about. However, yesterday I noticed only the odd one on the Atherton line.
Does Northern not require as many DMUs for service on a Saturday compared to a weekday?

 

[Mathew S]

Recently I have travelled a couple of times from Wigan to Manchester on the Atherton line. It was a weekday and this last week there were plenty of Class 142s still about. However, yesterday I noticed only the odd one on the Atherton line.
Does Northern not require as many DMUs for service on a Saturday compared to a weekday?

It varies from day to day. Some days most services seem to be 142s, other days it's mostly Sprinters.

 

[CdBrux]

Article on how slow the withdrawl is.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ised-museum-yet-arrive-still-needed-northern/

First few paras:

Trains promised to National Railway Museum have not arrived because they are still needed on the beleaguered Northern line, it has been claimed.

The National Railway Museum in York said it had plans to display a Pacer model, which was built in the 1980s, as it was an important part of the UK's railway heritage.

However, the timing of the Pacer’s arrival as an exhibition has yet to be confirmed - as the carriages remain in use on Northern-operated railway routes.

The distinctive carriages are well-known across the north of England as they feature a bus body welded to a chassis. The models have been in service since the 1980s.

Northern offered its assurances that there were no plans to retain the trains beyond the end of 2019 - but Aslef, the train drivers’ union, said it showed passengers were being treated “little better than cattle”.

A spokesman for Northern responded: “We will start operating new trains worth £500 million during 2019 and are upgrading the rest of our existing trains that will be in use in 2020 and beyond.

 

[driver_m]

Shows how much the telegraph gets out of the South East. Using sprinters to highlight their story.

 

[bengley]

Pacers on the Northern Line? I'd like to see that.

 

[Chris217]

Just another useless page filler.
The Telegraph is full of them.
People who read this trash don't even know what a train is let alone a Pacer!

Present company excepted lol.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Shows how much the telegraph gets out of the South East. Using sprinters to highlight their story.

A 150 leading a 156. Should we tell them?
EDIT: I missed the Merseyrail PEP

 

[Jozhua]

A 150 leading a 156. Should we tell them?

They probably think they look bad, just wait until someone shows them what a pacer actually looks like

 

[LOL The Irony]

They probably think they look bad, just wait until someone shows them what a pacer actually looks like

The look on their faces would be hilarious

 

[anamyd]

I've emailed the Telegraph about the incorrect image, explained why it's incorrect and pointed them in the right direction. Here's hoping

 

[CdBrux]

I should have realised people would head off to a fairly pointless moan about a small point like the picture. What about the substance of the article and the comments in it?

 

[Chris217]

Told you...
Just a page filler!

If an article like this was expected to
be taken seriously by its readership
They would have done their homework
first!