ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

[Cardiff123]

Fair comment - so there is no substance to the report that 769's have been "bashing platforms" and will have their use restricted to certain routes excluding Rhymney.

How can TfW's first 769 have been 'bashing platforms' when it hasn't moved from Canton sidings since it was delivered to them?

 

[anamyd]

The 769 has't been out on test and was spotted at Canton today reformed up with all 4 vehicles. Latest from TFW is still for Rhymney.
The best thing is to believe it when you see it, I think, as there are so many rumours flying around and increasing. Speculation is rife

yeah I even passed it today on the 175 I filmed the 153s movement on. I took photos and noticed that the building sign says "Pullman Rail" but also "Transport for Wales" so a bit confused. Bearing in mind that I've never been to the site, forgive me for asking but is Canton depot close to Central station, and is Pullman Rail (I had heard James Price talking about trains going to Pullman) right next to Canton depot...? I always assumed Canton was a suburb of Cardiff. or maybe it is and it's only just out of the city centre, and the railway gives the illusion that it's closer than it really is. Reminds me of the Abbey Foregate Class 97 shed, although to be fair Abbey Foregate is only just out of Shrewsbury town centre.

 

[anamyd]

I don't get the whole thinking Sprinters are Pacers thing. They're obviously different, less crude DMUs despite both having been made in the mid 80s.

Oh yes, but only a few (I posted a photo of it on another thread).

But my point was not much has changed and most customers wont have been on a PRM modified 150 yet and even those that have, many probably won't have noticed. The only way you'd notice is if you went to the toilet/sat in one of the ten or so seats near it, if you hadn't nothing substantial has changed, it's still a clapped out 30 year old train, which many believe to be a pacer.

 

[anamyd]

Thank you for posting this footage - couldn't get to Cardiff myself today to see the unusual cavalcade. I suppose, along with the delivery of the first 769 that it is some sort of start!

No worries, I almost wasn't able to film it and was some miracle really with me being late and the train being early! Had I not have been late I would have been able to film it from the platforms at Central.

 

[anamyd]

How can TfW's first 769 have been 'bashing platforms' when it hasn't moved from Canton sidings since it was delivered to them?

Apparently it was out on test.

 

[craigybagel]

yeah I even passed it today on the 175 I filmed the 153s movement on. I took photos and noticed that the building sign says "Pullman Rail" but also "Transport for Wales" so a bit confused. Bearing in mind that I've never been to the site, forgive me for asking but is Canton depot close to Central station, and is Pullman Rail (I had heard James Price talking about trains going to Pullman) right next to Canton depot...? I always assumed Canton was a suburb of Cardiff. or maybe it is and it's only just out of the city centre, and the railway gives the illusion that it's closer than it really is. Reminds me of the Abbey Foregate Class 97 shed, although to be fair Abbey Foregate is only just out of Shrewsbury town centre.

Canton depot is in the Cardiff suburb of Canton. It's about a 5 minute drive or 20 minute walk from Cardiff Central - although the latter is not recommended as the street between the two is not the safest.

Pullman Rail occupy a small portion of the northern end of Canton depot.

 

[anamyd]

Canton depot is in the Cardiff suburb of Canton. It's about a 5 minute drive or 20 minute walk from Cardiff Central - although the latter is not recommended as the street between the two is not the safest.

Pullman Rail occupy a small portion of the northern end of Canton depot.

Thanks for that

 

[Cardiff123]

Apparently it was out on test.

I don't see how when for the last few weeks it's been split in two.

 

[PaulHarding150]

I don't get the whole thinking Sprinters are Pacers thing. They're obviously different, less crude DMUs despite both having been made in the mid 80s.

To you and I yes, there are differences that we know about and see on each journey.

To the average passenger who just wants to get to/from work and spends an hour a day squashed inside whatever train turns up on their regular commute they're the same - a **** old train.

The term Pacer has almost become synonymous for valley line trains.

 

[43096]

I don't see how when for the last few weeks it's been split in two.

The key word was “apparently”...

 

[33017]

The key word was “apparently”...

It has not moved from Pullman since it arrived but has frequently been moved around the depot and is often split (normally reformed at the end of the day).

 

[anamyd]

To you and I yes, there are differences that we know about and see on each journey.

To the average passenger who just wants to get to/from work and spends an hour a day squashed inside whatever train turns up on their regular commute they're the same - a **** old train.

The term Pacer has almost become synonymous for valley line trains.

I wonder if those people will notice next year that there are significantly more "not Pacers" and some "odd looking long trains", and no "actual Pacers"...? Surely they will at least notice less crowding with the extra carriage space provided by the 769s and the internally cascaded 150s displaced by the wider franchise's 170s and 230s (which I worked out a while back is 600-and-something metres total and yes that's with the Pacers entirely gone)

 

[PHILIPE]

There was a recent report of 3 x 150s in Crewe presumably for PRM Mods and somebody has posted in a group that 150253 is also modified. If this is the case, they are going through them like wildfire.

 

[krus_aragon]

There was a recent report of 3 x 150s in Crewe presumably for PRM Mods and somebody has posted in a group that 150253 is also modified. If this is the case, they are going through them like wildfire.

Well, they need to by this point...

 

[anamyd]

There was a recent report of 3 x 150s in Crewe presumably for PRM Mods and somebody has posted in a group that 150253 is also modified. If this is the case, they are going through them like wildfire.

that's a good thing though, with the 1/1/2020 deadline. The exams can come later... I still have my list on page 4, but as far as I'm aware the following TfW units are "PRM'd":


Current units (43-46/100)

150/2s: 253/257/284/285 (4/36, but three more undergoing mods, one of them may be 217, so 7/36)

153s: none yet (0/13)

158/0s: 818/819/822/823/826/829/830/831/835/836/839/840 (12/24)

all 11 175/0s (001-011) and all 16 175/1s (101-116) are accepted as compliant from new


Units arriving during 2019 (26/26)

all 4 2-car 170/2s made by Bombardier in 2002 (270-273) are accepted as compliant from new.

all 8 3-car 170/2s made by AdTranz in 1999 (201-208) were derogated in late 2012 for incorrect door close control height, so that doesn't have to be corrected.

all 5 230s will be compliant.

all 9 769s will be compliant.



Does anyone know what the deal is with the Mark 4s...? have they been PRM modified under VTEC / LNER...? or at least as many as TfW are getting (12)...?

 

[anamyd]

150-253 seen today at Cardiff central with PRM mods but without corrosion repair (livery not re-applied)

 

[PHILIPE]

150-253 seen today at Cardiff central with PRM mods but without corrosion repair (livery not re-applied)

Sounds as though they are rushing PRMs through due to the deadline and do other jobs at their leisure later

 

[anamyd]

Sounds as though they are rushing PRMs through due to the deadline and do other jobs at their leisure later

yep. also didn't see any of the "new" 153s out today

 

[PHILIPE]

Ive also heard the HST rumour. Conflicting rumours but sounds true enough. The one I’ve heard is 4x GWR sets with mk2 coaches. Holyhead have been told to expect training soon apparently. I would think other depots have too if that’s true. Can’t imagine them having more than 5 coaches though.

Probably just 2 Sets of Mark 2s displaced at the turn of the year from the Cumbrian Coast, there may not be any more available anyway, and Colas locos 37418 and 37421. Any mini HSTs would probably be 2 + 4

 

[MatthewRead]

In addition for all of about 3 weeks in December, as any HST sets and 37 + Mk2 sets will need to be taken out of service at the end of this year, unless TfW get derogations to carry on running them if there are still DMUs to be PRM modified and all of the 9 x 769s are still not in service come next January, with the argument that they are essential to prevent severe overcrowding maybe.

ScotRail have meant to have received derogations to keep the 68/MK2 set indefinitely that is what I was told at Kikcaldy last year.

 

[158srule]

Bear in mind folks none of this has been announced officially yet, so I wouldn't make any assumptions about where the fleets are going and what they might be working.

Class 37s are official. Driver training has started. There will be some light loco moves to / from Newport on Friday 12th with loaded trainin runs on Rhymney Valley from 15th (1841 Canton - Rhymney and 2015 Rhymney - Cardiff)
One set will be in passenger traffic from the 19th May with the second rake about 1 month later once sufficient drivers are trained.

As for the HSTs if they come off they’ll be working the following Monday - Saturday:
0628 and 0805 Holyhead - Cardiff
I321 and 1521 Cardiff - Holyhead
1827 Holyhead - Crewe
2136 Crewe - Holyhead
2032 Holyhead - Chester
2257 Chester - Holyhead

This will see 175s operating the new Chester - Liverpool service displacing the 150/2s back in to South Wales onto the current 158 diagrams that operate in West Wales and on the Cheltenham - Maesteg services.

As for the ‘new’ 153s thy will not be in traffic until at least early May

 

[anamyd]

Class 37s are official. Driver training has started. There will be some light loco moves to / from Newport on Friday 12th with loaded trainin runs on Rhymney Valley from 15th (1841 Canton - Rhymney and 2015 Rhymney - Cardiff)
One set will be in passenger traffic from the 19th May with the second rake about 1 month later once sufficient drivers are trained.

As for the HSTs if they come off they’ll be working the following Monday - Saturday:
0628 and 0805 Holyhead - Cardiff
I321 and 1521 Cardiff - Holyhead
1827 Holyhead - Crewe
2136 Crewe - Holyhead
2032 Holyhead - Chester
2257 Chester - Holyhead

This will see 175s operating the new Chester - Liverpool service displacing the 150/2s back in to South Wales onto the current 158 diagrams that operate in West Wales and on the Cheltenham - Maesteg services.

As for the ‘new’ 153s thy will not be in traffic until at least early May

Missed this earlier - thanks for the info!

 

[craigybagel]

Missed this earlier - thanks for the info!

Still waiting on a source though.....

 

[Brissle Girl]

Still waiting on a source though.....

This strikes me as a bit aggressive. In many cases people can’t reveal their sources or don’t wish to. It sounds detailed enough to be from a reliable source, so it’s up to you whether or not you believe it.

 

[craigybagel]

This strikes me as a bit aggressive. In many cases people can’t reveal their sources or don’t wish to. It sounds detailed enough to be from a reliable source, so it’s up to you whether or not you believe it.

For what it's worth, I do find the info quite believable. There are certain details in there that fit in with restrictions I would expect the HST fleet to need to follow (like not stabling overnight in the South). But I think that before people get too excited and treat this info as gospel questions should be asked to ascertain how reliable it actually is. I get that sources sometimes have to remain secret - but given this profile only started posting a few days ago, is posting details as definite facts without listing sources, and has the type of username that to put it bluntly screams "enthusiast" rather than "senior TfW employee", I think it's only fair to ask questions.

I don’t know the set up up there, but the WAG has 6 vehicles and I’ve just seen the loco on the back tonight. So I’m not too sure what the issue is with 5 cars.

I wonder if it's the fueling cables themselves that can only reach 5 car lengths - so they can fuel the WAG provided the loco is at the right end, but with a 2 + 4 HST the rear loco will be too far away? It wouldn't be an issue for the WAG as I assume they would fuel it normally at Canton (given it has 7 hours sitting there every day) but if the HSTs are working all day diagrams it's much more likely that they would require fueling in Holyhead.

I've no idea if this is the truth, just throwing it out there as a possible cause.

 

[Cardiff123]

With only 6 weeks to go until the May TT change and the 769s being due in service, any news about them has gone eerily quiet.

No more deliveries to Canton and still not one 769 has run on the mainline anywhere in the UK under it's own power, diesel or electric.

 

[sw1ller]

For what it's worth, I do find the info quite believable. There are certain details in there that fit in with restrictions I would expect the HST fleet to need to follow (like not stabling overnight in the South). But I think that before people get too excited and treat this info as gospel questions should be asked to ascertain how reliable it actually is. I get that sources sometimes have to remain secret - but given this profile only started posting a few days ago, is posting details as definite facts without listing sources, and has the type of username that to put it bluntly screams "enthusiast" rather than "senior TfW employee", I think it's only fair to ask questions.



I wonder if it's the fueling cables themselves that can only reach 5 car lengths - so they can fuel the WAG provided the loco is at the right end, but with a 2 + 4 HST the rear loco will be too far away? It wouldn't be an issue for the WAG as I assume they would fuel it normally at Canton (given it has 7 hours sitting there every day) but if the HSTs are working all day diagrams it's much more likely that they would require fueling in Holyhead.

I've no idea if this is the truth, just throwing it out there as a possible cause.

Not a clue. I’ve just heard that they’ll be 8 coaches now. So I’m giving up talking about them until I’ve seen it in writing from TfW. Haha. The rumour mill is rife.

 

[tomos dafis]

With only 6 weeks to go until the May TT change and the 769s being due in service, any news about them has gone eerily quiet.

No more deliveries to Canton and still not one 769 has run on the mainline anywhere in the UK under it's own power, diesel or electric.

This to me makes the info. re: 37's plus loco hauled stock for Rhymney line credible. TFW have (or had) "timeline" posters at some stations recently promising extra capacity on valley lines from summer timetable change, and 769's on the Rhymney line were central to delivering this. If they are delayed further as seems likely TFW feel they must be seen to do something to deliver on extra capacity at peak times. 37's plus LHCS give extra capacity and could release pacers/150's to strengthen peak services on other valleys routes.

 

[Cardiff123]

This to me makes the info. re: 37's plus loco hauled stock for Rhymney line credible. TFW have (or had) "timeline" posters at some stations recently promising extra capacity on valley lines from summer timetable change, and 769's on the Rhymney line were central to delivering this. If they are delayed further as seems likely TFW feel they must be seen to do something to deliver on extra capacity at peak times. 37's plus LHCS give extra capacity and could release pacers/150's to strengthen peak services on other valleys routes.

Way things are going I think we'll be lucky to see any 769s in service with TfW before the autumn. ATW/TfW/Welsh Govt would've been better off ordering 10 more 230s for the Valleys as a temporary measure for PRM cover and capacity boost for 3 years than relying on the 769s, although no one knew 2 years ago when ordering the 769s the project would suffer so many setbacks and we'd still be waiting for one to test under its own power on the mainline network in April 2019, when 769s were supposed to be a ''quick fix" rolling stock solution
The 769s will be lucky to see 2 full years of service with TfW they way it's going. The fact that TfW have had to turn to 50 year old LHCS as a contingency due to the failure of the 769 project to produce anything remotely on time says a lot.
I'm sure if the LHCS could stay in service beyond 31/12/2019 it would.

I read from other forums/threads that Northern have almost given up on the 769s altogether and who can blame them.

 

[158srule]

For what it's worth, I do find the info quite believable. There are certain details in there that fit in with restrictions I would expect the HST fleet to need to follow (like not stabling overnight in the South). But I think that before people get too excited and treat this info as gospel questions should be asked to ascertain how reliable it actually is. I get that sources sometimes have to remain secret - but given this profile only started posting a few days ago, is posting details as definite facts without listing sources, and has the type of username that to put it bluntly screams "enthusiast" rather than "senior TfW employee", I think it's only fair to ask questions.



I wonder if it's the fueling cables themselves that can only reach 5 car lengths - so they can fuel the WAG provided the loco is at the right end, but with a 2 + 4 HST the rear loco will be too far away? It wouldn't be an issue for the WAG as I assume they would fuel it normally at Canton (given it has 7 hours sitting there every day) but if the HSTs are working all day diagrams it's much more likely that they would require fueling in Holyhead.

I've no idea if this is the truth, just throwing it out there as a possible cause.

Well if you’re going off the info I post you can be assured it’s reliwble no as up to date as possible as I’m involved in the planning of it!

HSTs would be fuelled at a Canton every day so would only need a short supply at night at Holyhead. HSTs are not a preferred option due to the amount of training required as additional train crew depots would need to be involved. The bigger probablility would be receiving 170s from Anglia earlier (summer) to cascade 150s off South Wales Mainline work to speed up PRM and WSP fitment. There will also be 8 x 142s moving from northern to TfW however this is dependant on Class 195 introduction which is being delayed further.

The 5 class 153s received from GWR will likely be kept in S Wales (Cardiff Bay and Cheltenham - Maesteg) as they have different lower power engines than the existing fleet which were fitted with updated engines back about 8 years ago (they’re about 80hp better)