• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Eurostar : Why are there no speed and distance in UK measurements?

Status
Not open for further replies.

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
But strangely enough, the whole airline industry still uses the imperial system, except above the ex USSR countries...

Presumably because of the US. If the US didn't use miles, would the UK still continue with it? Possibly not.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mutant Lemming

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
3,194
Location
London
Why not go the whole hog - change all the road signs to km, start driving on the right hand side, adopt the Euro, - don't bother asking anyone because it is all for our own good whether you like it or not.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,542
Location
Redcar
A slight over reaction perhaps? I'm not sure I see the downside of using metric measurements more widely. Changing the side of the road we use or adopting a different currency would be significantly more expensive and invasive that changing the measure of speed or distance.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
Why not go the whole hog - change all the road signs to km, start driving on the right hand side, adopt the Euro, - don't bother asking anyone because it is all for our own good whether you like it or not.

Ireland first changed their road signs to km and then, a much bigger task, changed all their speed limit signs literally overnight, in 2005.
 

Giugiaro

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2011
Messages
1,129
Location
Valongo - Portugal
But strangely enough, the whole airline industry still uses the imperial system, except above the ex USSR countries...

Because MURICA
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/a/2583

Non-SI is only used for altitude, distance and speed except in US and some other American countries.

  • Altitude is in feet because 1000 ft happens to be reasonable vertical separation and 1000 ft is easier to calculate with than the corresponding SI figure 300 m. Also the procedures for instrument flying were first developed in the USA using feet.
  • Distance is in nautical miles because it is related to the unit used for measuring latitude and longitude. 1 nautical mile corresponds to 1 minute latitude (and longitude on the equator), which makes it easier to calculate distances from navigational maps using the grid lines as scale (large area navigation maps need to preserve angles, so they can't have constant scale). If angles were converted to decimal, 1 km would be 1/100 gradian. Alas, angles and time were never converted to decimal.
  • Speed obviously based on the distance unit in use.
Nevertheless if it was not for the prevalence of US-built planes after WWII and more advanced state of aviation in the USA at that time, we would probably be using metric in Europe too as continental planes before WWII usually had instruments in metric.
 

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,489
Location
Norwich
I'm amazed anyone can still get aerated by metric over imperial. It's not exactly like metric measurements appeared overnight last week. I don't think I use anything imperial other than miles, in fact I spend more time getting annoyed with US recipes online giving everything in imperial rather than decent civilised metric.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Well you can do that for yourself - as you say it's not exactly difficult. A display in km/h on Eurostar is better than nothing, which is what you get in the way of speed display for passengers on any UK domestic train.

Once, maybe 15 years ago, I was on a VT Voyager which displayed its real-time speed Euston-Chester, so they can do it in the UK.
Ironically, tilt was not working on that particular unit, so the display never got past 110mph on the WCML.
Meanwhile, I was on a Pendolino in Portugal last week which displayed its speed (up to 220km/h) continuously - something else you can't do in the UK.
Many European trains show speeds routinely (eg Railjets).
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,546
Location
Elginshire
I honestly cannot see why the two systems cannot happily co-exist. I was taught metric at school, but was brought up by parents and grandparents who were used to the imperial system, and I'm comfortable using both. If someone asks me how much I weigh, I lie in stones and pounds and if they ask my height I tend to use feet and inches simply because that's what I grew up with. If I'm baking I use pounds and ounces, again simply because when I was learning at home the weights we had in the kitchen were imperial. In some ways it's easier to remember imperial quantities (eg a 4-4-4-2 sponge recipe), but if I'm searching for online recipes I have no issues adapting to using metric. What does annoy me is when American recipes use cups of this and that.

When I worked in the deli in a supermarket, customers would still ask for a quarter of this and half a pound of that even thought things were priced per kg. It's really not hard to remember the metric equivalents and, as pointed out upthread, conversions can easily be done in seconds by entering "5lb in kg" or similar into the search box on our phones or internet browsers. Would I grumble if they changed from using miles to kilometers on the roads? Well, perhaps initially, but it wouldn't be a huge hardship considering that all our neighbours use metric. As for this nonsense about switching to driving on the other side of the road, there are other countries which use km but still drive on the left - Australia, for example.

It's a lot of fuss about nothing :)
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
3,744
I went to school from 1979 to 1992, and wasn't taught conversion at all.

I'm the same age as you. I was taught both. I still use a mixture of them. Depends on what it is, the amount and the situation which.

Weather temperatures are where I'm very divided. Centigrade, sorry celsius!, for low temperatures, farenheit for high.
 

Giugiaro

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2011
Messages
1,129
Location
Valongo - Portugal
Would I grumble if they changed from using miles to kilometers on the roads? Well, perhaps initially, but it wouldn't be a huge hardship considering that all our neighbours use metric.

Well, as long as the signs and the speedometer use the same units, that's fine. I also go through the same when driving on RailWorks or Train Sim World. What really is a deal breaker is when the speedometer doesn't have the same units as the signage.

That's why I prefer to set my company in the UK on Euro Truck Simulator. Because you get right hand drive lorries with dual speed gauges you can always mind the speed whenever you're in the UK or in continental Europe.
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
3,744
I'm amazed anyone can still get aerated by metric over imperial. It's not exactly like metric measurements appeared overnight last week. I don't think I use anything imperial other than miles, in fact I spend more time getting annoyed with US recipes online giving everything in imperial rather than decent civilised metric.

I bet you do use imperial sometimes. How tall are you; how much do you weigh? Use metric for those and most people will have no idea if you're short or heavy.
 

big all

On Moderation
Joined
23 Sep 2018
Messages
876
Location
redhill
i use both metric and imperial when measuring small gaps or making furniture i have done for perhaps 25 years now
i will write the dominant units down and the other units in brackets this allows a check if they dont match then something is wrong
i wont be fully anal as you dont need 100% as 98% is near enough as in 2" will call it 50mm in brackets but its actually 50.8mm but my brain automatically makes allowances and notices mistakes ;)
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
Ireland first changed their road signs to km and then, a much bigger task, changed all their speed limit signs literally overnight, in 2005.
I lived in Ireland at a time when all the distance signs were in km, but all the speed limits were still in mph. No-one thought it was odd. People just got on with life. (Similarly, the changeover from IR£ to € was really simple. Within two weeks you were thinking of everything in terms of €. Within a month you'd forgotten there ever was a different currency before!)

Other countries such as Australia, New Zeland and Canada have made the switch to using km and km/h on the roads - and surprisingly the world didn't end!

Why ? - shouldn't something as fundamental as changing our system of measurements have been put to a vote for the people to decide ?
Why not go the whole hog - change all the road signs to km, start driving on the right hand side, adopt the Euro, - don't bother asking anyone because it is all for our own good whether you like it or not.
Would you like to go back to using farthings and thruppenny bits? How about measuring lengths in barleycorns, cubits, rods or leagues?

Things change, people adapt.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I bet you do use imperial sometimes. How tall are you; how much do you weigh? Use metric for those and most people will have no idea if you're short or heavy.

Babies are weighed by the NHS in kg, even if the parents still call it 6lb 5oz etc.

The railway is odd in many ways, but has to live with most of it being surveyed and built to imperial measurements.
I'd love to know how Thomas Brassey and the other early railway contractors got on when building railways in France.
Brassey was known for doing all the sums in his head!

There were also several different measurement systems in use in the early railway building era.
I still can't get my head round the "Prussian mile" (7.5325 km).
 
Last edited:

Mutant Lemming

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
3,194
Location
London
I lived in Ireland at a time when all the distance signs were in km, but all the speed limits were still in mph. No-one thought it was odd. People just got on with life. (Similarly, the changeover from IR£ to € was really simple. Within two weeks you were thinking of everything in terms of €. Within a month you'd forgotten there ever was a different currency before!)

Other countries such as Australia, New Zeland and Canada have made the switch to using km and km/h on the roads - and surprisingly the world didn't end!


Would you like to go back to using farthings and thruppenny bits? How about measuring lengths in barleycorns, cubits, rods or leagues?

Things change, people adapt.

Change is fine as long as it isn't imposed without consent. We were never asked if we wanted these fundamental changes that altered out lives quite significantly. The arguments for and against should have been put to us and the people should have been allowed to decide rather than just bury the history and individuality of a nation for the sake of a bureaucrats 'project' - or is democracy only applicable if those running the 'project' win?
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,542
Location
Redcar
So yes you would like to go back to pounds shillings and pence? I'm not aware of that being put to the people?
 

DavidGrain

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2017
Messages
1,233
When I first went to Sweden in 1979, people were taking in 'Swedish Miles'. I was on a coach which I was told would be a 3 mile journey. It turned out to be a 30km ride. I have been many time to Sweden since but have not heard that term used again. However Wikipedia says that the Swedish tax authorities still use it for calculating business mileage allowances.

Last tine I was on a Swedish train the in carriage display alternated messages about next station, final destination and speed (upto 200 km/h).
 

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,489
Location
Norwich
I bet you do use imperial sometimes. How tall are you; how much do you weigh? Use metric for those and most people will have no idea if you're short or heavy.

I use miles for long distances but tend to use meters for short. I'll admit I use it for height but not weight.

Metric just makes more sense. 10mm to the cm, 100cm to a m and 1000m to a km makes far more sense than 12in to a ft, 3ft to a yard and 1760yds in a mile.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
Why not go the whole hog - change all the road signs to km, start driving on the right hand side, adopt the Euro, - don't bother asking anyone because it is all for our own good whether you like it or not.

Why would you need to change what side of the road you drive on to switch to speed limits in kilometres per hour?

I do wish we had changed back when Sweden did, as we'd have cheaper cars now. I think at this stage the cost would be crazy (as well as how the heck you'd actually do it).

Finally, how do you get on to currency from this?! What's wrong with pound and pence? It's decimal already.
 
Last edited:

DavidGrain

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2017
Messages
1,233
I use miles for long distances but tend to use meters for short. I'll admit I use it for height but not weight.

Metric just makes more sense. 10mm to the cm, 100cm to a m and 1000m to a km makes far more sense than 12in to a ft, 3ft to a yard and 1760yds in a mile.

The problem is that when the British Government decided to go metric they did not use the same system that the rest of Europe uses. The above answer referes to centimetres yet a centimetre is not a recognised unit of measurement in this country. The only official units of measurement for length in the UK are millimetres, metres and kilometres. I used to work for a glass processing company which imported glass sheets size 6m x 3.2m form Belgium. We used to specify 6,000mm x 3200mm but all the paperwork which came back from Belgium said 600cm x 320cm.

By the way I do use kg for my weight as that conforms with my doctor's surgery when I see the nurse for checkups. It is actually less freightening than my weight in stones. I would not want to weigh myself in pounds as Americans do.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
Change is fine as long as it isn't imposed without consent. We were never asked if we wanted these fundamental changes that altered out lives quite significantly. The arguments for and against should have been put to us and the people should have been allowed to decide rather than just bury the history and individuality of a nation for the sake of a bureaucrats 'project' - or is democracy only applicable if those running the 'project' win?

How old are you? Do you know for sure that people weren't consulted? Maybe there wasn't a referendum but maybe the parties of the day had it in a manifesto and people voted that way?
 

apk55

Member
Joined
7 Jul 2011
Messages
438
Location
Altrincham
As an engineer I have worked in metric all my life. While there are still relics of imperial system around (such as pin spacing for integrated circuits ) all real work is done in metric. It simplifies things on a wold wide basis which means that I can get for example a replacement bolt for my car anywhere in the world.
I tend to think in metric as a result and sometimes have difficulty in visualizing short distance in imperial, temperatures in Fahrenheit or weights in pounds

And the two systems are linked - an inch is defined as 25.5mm exactly
 

EAD

Member
Joined
14 Nov 2014
Messages
236
Sadly my suspicions at the outset of the OP's question have been borne out here. I thought the question may be genuine, to which the simplified answer is HS1 and Eurotunnel are essentially specified and built to through standards so use Kilometres, etc as people have explained. From the thread it appears that a wider political point is trying to be made by the OP veiled as question re Eurostar. Of course there are other parts of the site for purely political discussions.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Change is fine as long as it isn't imposed without consent. We were never asked if we wanted these fundamental changes that altered out lives quite significantly. The arguments for and against should have been put to us and the people should have been allowed to decide rather than just bury the history and individuality of a nation for the sake of a bureaucrats 'project' - or is democracy only applicable if those running the 'project' win?

You can't have a democratic vote on every little aspect of life.
That's a recipe for chaos, and is why we elect MPs to take collective decisions our behalf.
The metrication programme was I think a Labour project ("white hot heat of technology"), but a Tory minister ("dead sheep" Geoffrey Howe) stopped it just before the final push which would have got rid of remaining imperial measures.
Just before he died he said it was the worst decision he ever made, as it kept the UK's half-baked system and destroyed the benefits of standardisation.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
There will come a point, within about 20 years, when everyone alive that was taught imperial measurements will be drawing their state pensions. At that point there will be no excuse not to go metric on road signs. It will be quite an exercise (as Ireland found out).
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
782
And Sweden switched from left to right hand driving virtually overnight:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H
Hopefully it was actually overnight otherwise there would have been some awful crashes.

As regards the metric system, one area which will never change is the humble shipping container which is fixed for ever at lengths of 20, 30 or 40 feet, width of 8 feet and heights of 8 feet 6 inches or 9 feet 6 inches. This will never change for the simple reason that every container ship in the world has cellular guides for those dimensions and every container port has cranes sized for those dimensions.
 
Last edited:

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
782
There will come a point, within about 20 years, when everyone alive that was taught imperial measurements will be drawing their state pensions. At that point there will be no excuse not to go metric on road signs. It will be quite an exercise (as Ireland found out).

There's a difference between being taught in metric and living in a world where we still use some imperial measures. Everybody who drives, young or old, is used to miles and speeds in MPH and nobody seems to be confused. The cost of changing would be enormous and there would be no benefit whatsoever.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,164
Should we stick with Fahrenheit for temperature too, as the Daily Express and Mail seem to prefer?
Celsius is way more logical: 0 for freezing point of water and 100 for boiling point is utterly sensible and understandable. 32F for freezing point is just stupid!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top