Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[js1000]

So how many Class 195, 2 car or 3 car have now been built and can the rest be rectified on the production line?
Maybe the later built sets with mods could be put into traffic sooner.

There's going to have be a quick turnaround time for getting the 195s in service by the end of the year by the sound of things. I don't see the DfT granting derogations on the Pacers, firstly on the basis that if the deadline is going to be ignored then it could be pushed back indefinitely so what's the point of a deadline? If it meant a rolling stock shortage for the first half of 2020 then they'd probably shrug their shoulders and say "so be it". Secondly, it also puts the government in a legally difficult position - frustrated disabled passengers could eventually pursue legal action against the TOC/government if non-compliant rolling stock is still in service beyond 2019.

 

[Glenn1969]

I'm wondering whether it might mean Northern Connect launch being delayed until May or December 2020 because of the stock shortage

 

[Harvey B]

There's going to have be a quick turnaround time for getting the 195s in service by the end of the year by the sound of things. I don't see the DfT granting derogations on the Pacers, firstly on the basis that if the deadline is going to be ignored then it could be pushed back indefinitely so what's the point of a deadline? If it meant a rolling stock shortage for the first half of 2020 then they'd probably shrug their shoulders and say "so be it". Secondly, it also puts the government in a legally difficult position - frustrated disabled passengers could eventually pursue legal action against the TOC/government if non-compliant rolling stock is still in service beyond 2019.

So let me get this straight, is it that you don't think any CAF units are going to be in service by December? Or do you think they are?

 

[krus_aragon]

So let me get this straight, is it that you don't think any CAF units are going to be in service by December? Or do you think they are?

My reading of that post is a fear that there may be some in service, but not enough to replace all the Pacers by December.

 

[Bantamzen]

There's going to have be a quick turnaround time for getting the 195s in service by the end of the year by the sound of things. I don't see the DfT granting derogations on the Pacers, firstly on the basis that if the deadline is going to be ignored then it could be pushed back indefinitely so what's the point of a deadline? If it meant a rolling stock shortage for the first half of 2020 then they'd probably shrug their shoulders and say "so be it". Secondly, it also puts the government in a legally difficult position - frustrated disabled passengers could eventually pursue legal action against the TOC/government if non-compliant rolling stock is still in service beyond 2019.

My reading of that post is a fear that there may be some in service, but not enough to replace all the Pacers by December.

Given all the current delays to new & refurbished units due into service up and down the country, I think it is a given that at least some non-compliant stock will still be in operation next year. Now that is not to say that accessibility groups will not seek some action, but as was (allegedly) the case with the two TPE MKIII sets, taking action may actually force TOCs to simply start to cancel more services. And given that Pacers can still technically, if not legally carry people with accessible needs this would be very counter-productive for the sake of a few extra months worth of non-compliant operation.

 

[Harvey B]

My reading of that post is a fear that there may be some in service, but not enough to replace all the Pacers by December.

The person I was replying to worded it like he thought no CAF would be entering service until December.
As I say, the earlier Northern actually put the CAF units into service, the longer Northern will have to withdraw Pacers and also tney can phase them out of service in small chunks rather than withdrawing them altogether.

 

[Harvey B]

Given all the current delays to new & refurbished units due into service up and down the country, I think it is a given that at least some non-compliant stock will still be in operation next year. Now that is not to say that accessibility groups will not seek some action, but as was (allegedly) the case with the two TPE MKIII sets, taking action may actually force TOCs to simply start to cancel more services. And given that Pacers can still technically, if not legally carry people with accessible needs this would be very counter-productive for the sake of a few extra months worth of non-compliant operation.

Sorry for going of topic here but:
Even though I don't live in the midlands area I still and even though this is a different TOC to Northern im predicting that the only non compliant units that will run post December (abd fit for post December use) will be the Class 139 that runs between Stourbrodge Town and Stourbridge Junction.

I mentioned that for the reason that the CAF units need to be entered into service ASAP (mid August the latest) so that all of the units Northern will keep after 2020 will be all made compliant and the Pacers and 153s can be withdrawn quicker too

 

[supervc-10]

I've seen talk of the 153s being kept on for a while, so long as they're always coupled to compliant units. Could the same apply to Pacers if required? I often see them coupled to 15x units around Manchester. The Northern 150s and 156s are being upgraded to be PRM compliant aren't they? As much as I'd like to see the Pacers sent to the scrapheap ASAP, I'd also rather a seat on a Pacer rather than either standing in a short-formed 150 or left behind!

 

[Spartacus]

I've seen talk of the 153s being kept on for a while, so long as they're always coupled to compliant units. Could the same apply to Pacers if required? I often see them coupled to 15x units around Manchester. The Northern 150s and 156s are being upgraded to be PRM compliant aren't they? As much as I'd like to see the Pacers sent to the scrapheap ASAP, I'd also rather a seat on a Pacer rather than either standing in a short-formed 150 or left behind!

I'm inclined to think that might be the way forward if push came to shove, meaning that the 14x or 153 would be virtually considered as being stock hauled by a compliant unit, and no worse than trains which only have a few compliant coaches or cars, it would be better than a withdrawal en-mass with nothing to replace them, leading to short forms and widespread cancellations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm inclined to think that might be the way forward if push came to shove, meaning that the 14x or 153 would be virtually considered as being stock hauled by a compliant unit, and no worse than trains which only have a few compliant coaches or cars, it would be better than a withdrawal en-mass with nothing to replace them, leading to short forms and widespread cancellations.

If derogations become necessary due to late delivery of 195s, this kind of approach (allowing one but conditional on being coupled to a compliant unit) would make some sense.

That said, the ScotRail conversion approach looks good, and such units may well be valuable on e.g. the S&C. You don't have to fit a toilet as they would always run with other units.

 

[Chester1]

Keeping Pacers next year would also require changing the franchise agreement which bans their use after 2019. 153 derogations would be politically sellable, but pacer derogations would not be. It's still a while yet before DfT and Northern need to start implementing contingency measures. Fortunately there are enough spare EMUs that derogations alone can resolve 331 delays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Keeping Pacers next year would also require changing the franchise agreement which bans their use after 2019. 153 derogations would be politically sellable, but pacer derogations would not be. It's still a while yet before DfT and Northern need to start implementing contingency measures. Fortunately there are enough spare EMUs that derogations alone can resolve 331 delays.

Pacers are better than a road bus, though.

That said, could some splitting of routes at electrification boundaries (even quite extreme ones like temporarily splitting the Buxtons at Hazel Grove) achieve it if this does become necessary? It's DMUs there's a big shortage of.

 

[supervc-10]

Keeping Pacers next year would also require changing the franchise agreement which bans their use after 2019. 153 derogations would be politically sellable, but pacer derogations would not be. It's still a while yet before DfT and Northern need to start implementing contingency measures. Fortunately there are enough spare EMUs that derogations alone can resolve 331 delays.

I think that most people, despite the inevitable complaining, would put up with Pacers strengthening 150s if the alternative is standing or not getting where they want to go. But I agree that 153 derogations would be a lot easier!

 

[Spartacus]

Keeping Pacers next year would also require changing the franchise agreement which bans their use after 2019. 153 derogations would be politically sellable, but pacer derogations would not be. It's still a while yet before DfT and Northern need to start implementing contingency measures. Fortunately there are enough spare EMUs that derogations alone can resolve 331 delays.

Pacers continuing after 2019 might not be politically acceptable, but neither would be a repeat of the chaos the May 2018 timetable brought, which could foreseeably happen.

 

[Chester1]

Pacers are better than a road bus, though.

That said, could some splitting of routes at electrification boundaries (even quite extreme ones like temporarily splitting the Buxtons at Hazel Grove) achieve it if this does become necessary? It's DMUs there's a big shortage of.

I think that would be too extreme but there is definitely some room for rationalising routes based on reducing running under the wires.

I think that most people, despite the inevitable complaining, would put up with Pacers strengthening 150s if the alternative is standing or not getting where they want to go. But I agree that 153 derogations would be a lot easier!

It really depends on how short Northern are of 195s and 769s in December. I have said before that something like another DRS loco and carriage lease could happen to run a handful of services. Northern only have 8 X 153s so it would not be hugely helpful unless other ToCs don't keep theirs. One big unknown is the splitting of Liverpool-Norwich EMT services. If TPE get the Western half from maybe May 2020 and use 185s then over a dozen units would have no work from December 2019 (if TPE gets enough new stock in service) and would be ideal for running Northern Connect services for a few months.

Pacers continuing after 2019 might not be politically acceptable, but neither would be a repeat of the chaos the May 2018 timetable brought, which could foreseeably happen.

That would not happen if there was proper planning and the call was made on time. The timetable was a fiasco because it was incredibly rushed.

 

[Chris217]

One things for certain.
The major delay in the introduction
of the class 195s means Pacers have
a stay of execution for a bit longer
and the likely hood of 144s being
cascaded to Cardiff looks less optimistic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It really depends on how short Northern are of 195s and 769s in December. I have said before that something like another DRS loco and carriage lease could happen to run a handful of services. Northern only have 8 X 153s so it would not be hugely helpful unless other ToCs don't keep theirs. One big unknown is the splitting of Liverpool-Norwich EMT services. If TPE get the Western half from maybe May 2020 and use 185s then over a dozen units would have no work from December 2019 (if TPE gets enough new stock in service) and would be ideal for running Northern Connect services for a few months.

Is that figuring on double units for Liv-Notts? Single units will be inadequate, due to the low density layout they barely have any more capacity than a 2-car 158.

 

[507021]

It really depends on how short Northern are of 195s and 769s in December. I have said before that something like another DRS loco and carriage lease could happen to run a handful of services. Northern only have 8 X 153s so it would not be hugely helpful unless other ToCs don't keep theirs. One big unknown is the splitting of Liverpool-Norwich EMT services. If TPE get the Western half from maybe May 2020 and use 185s then over a dozen units would have no work from December 2019 (if TPE gets enough new stock in service) and would be ideal for running Northern Connect services for a few months.

Northern have twenty 153s at the moment.

 

[Chester1]

One things for certain.
The major delay in the introduction
of the class 195s means Pacers have
a stay of execution for a bit longer
and the likely hood of 144s being
cascaded to Cardiff looks less optimistic.

Yes, unless they go to Wales in the summer there won't be much point.

Is that figuring on double units for Liv-Notts? Single units will be inadequate, due to the low density layout they barely have any more capacity than a 2-car 158.

Yes. My guess would be 6 diagrams, 12 units rostered, 2 spares. I would prefer TPE used other stock but it will extremely useful if they sign long leases extensions for 14 x 185s but no work for them from December 2019 to May 2020.

Northern have twenty 153s at the moment.

Oops! Derogations for 20 would make a difference. Its about the same number of seats as 15 pacers? They can't be used on all routes but there are options to replace double pacers with a 150+153, and double 150s with double 153s + a 150.

 

[Harvey B]

Pacers continuing after 2019 might not be politically acceptable, but neither would be a repeat of the chaos the May 2018 timetable brought, which could foreseeably happen.

both your points I agree with which is why I think Northern should introduce the new CAF units by mid August the latest

 

[Spartacus]

both your points I agree with which is why I think Northern should introduce the new CAF units by mid August the latest

I'm sure they'd introduce some tomorrow if they could, but there's a lot of things to be done before they can be introduced.

 

[anamyd]

One things for certain.
The major delay in the introduction
of the class 195s means Pacers have
a stay of execution for a bit longer
and the likely hood of 144s being
cascaded to Cardiff looks less optimistic.

from a TfW employee forum member its supposedly going to be 8 142s rather than 13 144s. Probably the 8 most clapped out 142s.

 

[Harvey B]

from a TfW employee forum member its supposedly going to be 8 142s rather than 13 144s. Probably the 8 most clapped out 142s.

is that 8 142s being cascaded to TfW? Or is it 8 142s staying with Northern until the 195s arrive?

 

[anamyd]

is that 8 142s being cascaded to TfW? Or is it 8 142s staying with Northern until the 195s arrive?

cascaded to TfW, if and when possible this year

 

[507021]

Oops! Derogations for 20 would make a difference. Its about the same number of seats as 15 pacers? They can't be used on all routes but there are options to replace double pacers with a 150+153, and double 150s with double 153s + a 150.

Well it'll be eighteen once the remaining two ex-GWR 153s transfer to ScotRail, and if I've done my maths correctly, they'll have around the same number of seats as ten Pacers between them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well it'll be eighteen once the remaining two ex-GWR 153s transfer to ScotRail, and if I've done my maths correctly, they'll have around the same number of seats as ten Pacers between them.

Depends which Pacers you're using to get the seating capacity. The bus-seated and Merseytravel 142s have a higher stated capacity than the ones with "car seats" or the 144s, due to being 3+2. 144012 being the lowest capacity, roughly similar to a 153.

 

[Monkeyhead]

There was something new and CAF-ish parked up at Neville Hill this evening, couldn’t see what but guess a 195?

 

[Harvey B]

There was something new and CAF-ish parked up at Neville Hill this evening, couldn’t see what but guess a 195?

It could have been a refurbished 333 parked up.

EDIT: Looks like it is a 331

 

[darloscott]

There was something new and CAF-ish parked up at Neville Hill this evening, couldn’t see what but guess a 195?

331 likely, one dragged over the hills this morning

 

[Monkeyhead]

Thanks chaps, was definitely not a 333, but was stood on the far side of the train so couldn’t get a clear view. 331 sounds likely then.....