GWR Class 800

[Bletchleyite]

I'd prefer an extra load of seats than any type of catering. Taking up that much space isn't justified, especially the amount on 5/10 car trains. Trolleys are used by very few people, take up staff and space, and often block the way through and make lots of noise. Why not just buy what you need before you board?

Because cups of tea and coffee tend to go cold on a 4 hour journey. And Thermos tea and coffee never tastes as nice?

Because some smaller stations don't have facilities to buy anything?

 

[43096]

Because cups of tea and coffee tend to go cold on a 4 hour journey. And Thermos tea and coffee never tastes as nice?

Because some smaller stations don't have facilities to buy anything?

And because we should be providing an attractive service rather than running cattle trucks.

 

[Ethano92]

And because we should be providing an attractive service rather than running cattle trucks.

I'd suggest that a trolley serving overpriced instant coffee isn't the deciding factor between whether the 800s are cattle trucks or not. If they fully utilised the kitchens to provide hot food on the trolley I doubt anyone would have a problem with them.

The vast majority don't use the trolleys anyway. Should they be gotten rid off? No as there should be the option there on long train journeys but certainly if there was no catering provisions and plenty of seats for more people to not be crammed in the vestibules during peaks I highly doubt they'd be seen as cattle trucks.

 

[Kite159]

You can only wonder at the comments on sites like tripadvisor which are already now pretty appalling about the 800`s on the Penzance route once the season starts in earnest in Devon and Cornwall. Contrary to what many on this forum think the seasons has already started there and it`s only going to get worse. Yes there`ll be more seats to be sure but those trolley`s are never going to get down those aisles. Taking the buffet section away on this route will prove a big mistake. You`ve only got to look at cross-country's voyagers to know that. They don`t even bother taking the trolley out when it gets too busy, which is a regular occurrence with XC.

And when the train is busy good luck trying to fight your way through the crowds to reach the buffet, fighting past the drunks making silly comments to buy your coffee, to come back to find your seat taken by someone else, or your luggage doing a disappearing act.

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely the Pullman Dining would be in the long distance portion, not the Plymouth portion?

Unfortunately that's not the case.

 

[swt_passenger]

I didn't know about the Southampton splits and joins, but it does have four through platform lines so although any delay in waiting for sections is undesirable it would not so terminally catastrophic as would be the case at Oxford.

Just to add that the above numbers are a significant increase but splits and joins already occur at Southampton, in the peaks in the peak flow direction. But up joining trains follow each other closely over the same tracks, they aren’t arriving from completely different routes.

 

[jimm]

Jimm. Have you ever journeyed to or from Cornwall at all by rail?. I`ve also said before I don`t have a problem on certain services being split but every train I`ve got on most mornings and I`ve done this for many years is usually nearly full after Truro. Contrast this with the many 9 car trains from Worcester and the Malverns as Irish rail rightly points out and there is a valid criticism. If as you say it`s to fit peak service demand why in that case are those trains not split. It works both ways. You can`t say one can have 9 car and the others have to split. Anyone who uses the West of England line would tell you longer trains are necessary most of the time. Yes. I understand there is going to be more peak services ph when needed as there should be but that doesn`t reflect travel from London to the south west. You are clearly misinformed about the differences in the numbers of people visiting Devon and Cornwall which are much higher for longer periods of the year and yes, they can and do reach the summer holiday levels at other times of the year and quite regularly. I guarantee this would be far more than visitors to Worcester and the Malverns.
As an aside, didn`t GWR use the class 180`s which clearly had smaller capacity on this route. I never remember a class 180 making it into Cornwall which goes to show the point.
You also have a vendetta against buffets on the 800`s for some reasons when virtually everyone I know doesn`t. Of course some won`t use them but GWR have this wrong on the West of England for sure. It`s not about a Pullman service either.

Oddly enough, the West Country being a tourist detention, I have been travelling into, out of and around Cornwall on trains on and off for 40 years or so, at various times of the year.

How often do you travel on the Cotswold Line? Rarely, if ever, judging by the things you say above and obvious blanket refusal, just like irish_rail, to accept anything I, or others, have said about the way that five-car and nine-car sets are being used on the Cotswold Line - ie, just the same way HSTs and 180s/Turbos were used on the various services, at various times of the day, until last year when IETs were introduced on the route.

PS: Clearly I have been hearing things and hallucinating when on board a number of morning peak trains recently and catering announcements offering hot bacon rolls have been made and trolleys or staff members have been sighted transporting such things along trains in insulated bags. Clearly there are issues over the consistency of the catering offer and room for improvement but HST buffets weren't exactly replete with exciting food options in recent years either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately that's not the case.

That is either a deliberate attempt to reduce demand or grossly incompetent. Knowing FirstGroup I know which one of those I suspect.

 

[404250]

And because we should be providing an attractive service rather than running cattle trucks.

I'm obviously in the minority but I'd like a fast, comfortable, less crowded journey by having extra seats and do without food/drink or take my own. Four hours is a long journey but you won't starve!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm obviously in the minority but I'd like a fast, comfortable, less crowded journey by having extra seats and do without food/drink or take my own. Four hours is a long journey but you won't starve!

It's not about "not starving", it's about making a long journey a pleasant experience.

 

[404250]

I'd find it a pleasant journey having a window seat, maybe a table, and a few snacks from my bag. Getting an aisle seat next to a stranger (or standing), and paying for instant coffee from a trolley isn't my idea of a pleasant experience.

 

[CptCharlee]

So why did LNER get the buffet car yet GWR didn't? That baffles me! I didn't realise they were to have buffet cars on the east coast until this thread.

They both serve the same inter city routes, so I don't understand. I have seen many passengers on GWR complain about the removal of this.

 

[PHILIPE]

GWR say that Customer Research feedback said that passengers would prefer an at seat service but these customers seem difficult to find.

 

[Master29]

I'd prefer an extra load of seats than any type of catering. Taking up that much space isn't justified, especially the amount on 5/10 car trains. Trolleys are used by very few people, take up staff and space, and often block the way through and make lots of noise. Why not just buy what you need before you board? There could be a self services water cooler somewhere in the train for emergency thirsts.

By "that much" space you mean 16 seats out of 580. I agree it is subjective issue however as I often bring my own food and drink as well as buying stuff. I just happen to think it`s necessary on the Penzance route.

And when the train is busy good luck trying to fight your way through the crowds to reach the buffet, fighting past the drunks making silly comments to buy your coffee, to come back to find your seat taken by someone else, or your luggage doing a disappearing act.

And of course watching a trolley stacked with lots of goodies gliding effortlessly down empty, roomy aisles in the height of summer will soon be the norm.

Oddly enough, the West Country being a tourist detention, I have been travelling into, out of and around Cornwall on trains on and off for 40 years or so, at various times of the year.

How often do you travel on the Cotswold Line? Rarely, if ever, judging by the things you say above and obvious blanket refusal, just like irish_rail, to accept anything I, or others, have said about the way that five-car and nine-car sets are being used on the Cotswold Line - ie, just the same way HSTs and 180s/Turbos were used on the various services, at various times of the day, until last year when IETs were introduced on the route.

PS: Clearly I have been hearing things and hallucinating when on board a number of morning peak trains recently and catering announcements offering hot bacon rolls have been made and trolleys or staff members have been sighted transporting such things along trains in insulated bags. Clearly there are issues over the consistency of the catering offer and room for improvement but HST buffets weren't exactly replete with exciting food options in recent years either.

Bacon rolls? Well, hardly a justification for 2 large kitchens is it? How long have the IEP`s been running now? You are certainly correct about consistency, especially when they can be and probably are done in a microwave.

 

[404250]

By "that much" space you mean 16 seats out of 580. I agree it is subjective issue however as I often bring my own food and drink as well as buying stuff. I just happen to think it`s necessary on the Penzance

Surely you'd get more than 16 standard seats in place of 2 kitchens in a 10 car train? In any case often there's just a couple of people standing between each car so they could all be seated.

 

[Master29]

So why did LNER get the buffet car yet GWR didn't? That baffles me! I didn't realise they were to have buffet cars on the east coast until this thread.

They both serve the same inter city routes, so I don't understand. I have seen many passengers on GWR complain about the removal of this.

Well, there you ask the 64k question which only seems to generate almost parrot fashion the favourite 3 answers
1) The DfT did not specify it.
2) It would take up a massive 16 out of 580 standard seats.
3) GWR customer research states customers didn`t want it.

Satisfactory answers? Not according to virtually everyone I know. I doubt GWR bothered with any research at all seeing as this is contradicted by the first answer anyway.

 

[Master29]

Surely you'd get more than 16 standard seats in place of 2 kitchens in a 10 car train? In any case often there's just a couple of people standing between each car so they could all be seated.

Just to clarify. I was talking about the LNER buffet which takes up 16 spaces. The kitchens will still be there regardless which only goes to prove what a waste of space they are if they are not going to be used as is the case with GWR and could in theory have provided more seats.

 

[stj]

Maybe in the future the 800s could be re-engineered with new interiors and 5 car sets formed into one longer set even some becoming electric only once the wires reach Bristol TM etc.

 

[td97]

So why did LNER get the buffet car yet GWR didn't?

Transport Scotland might be the ones to thank for the LNER buffets, given they were very keen for their Inter7City services to have onboard 'cafes', and these compete directly with LNER. As always, competition is good for the consumer.

 

[northernbelle]

I'm obviously in the minority but I'd like a fast, comfortable, less crowded journey by having extra seats and do without food/drink or take my own. Four hours is a long journey but you won't starve!

You're actually not in the minority - the vast, vast majority of passengers tell mystery shoppers, surveys, research and the TOCs directly that catering is actually a fair way down their list of priorities, despite what a few of these forum bleaters 'evidence' by repeatedly telling us their rose-tinted buffet car anecdotes.

Sure, there are issues with the IETs that need to be sorted out, but they are far from the starvation-causing polluting cattle trucks some would have you believe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GWR say that Customer Research feedback said that passengers would prefer an at seat service but these customers seem difficult to find.

I would prefer an at-seat service if it:
1. Offered a decent range including proper quality hot drinks. Tea is harder to do wrong (though I was pleased to see it's Yorkshire on LNER), but for coffee instant, even fancy instant, doesn't cut it. DB have for years brewed filter coffee off the train and carried on a flask of it which works, or alternatively so do those filter cups Ryanair and TPE use.
2. Had enough stock on board.
3. Was near-always there, and was reliably on the PIS as not present if it wasn't going to be present.
4. Was on a train which was adequately not overcrowded that it can always get through.
5. There were enough trolleys for a reasonably frequent pass-through - certainly not just one on a 10 car train (yes, you, SWR).

However, in most cases none of these are delivered, so a buffet wins out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sure, there are issues with the IETs that need to be sorted out, but they are far from the starvation-causing polluting cattle trucks some would have you believe.

I think the issues caused by the trolley are rather different on the Penzance services. To me these need a completely different offering in almost every way than the Bristols and the Cardiffs - the latter are little more than posh regional expresses, a bit like the Norwich mainline or the VTWC Birmingham shuttles, while the former are true InterCity long distance services with most passengers making very long journeys, a little more like the likes of the Highland Chieftain but more frequent.

As for the 800s themselves they need some build quality improvements to remove rattles etc, and a completely new interior from scratch in both classes, including certifying a suitable long-distance seat for 125mph use should this be required, and lighting modifications to create a quality, relaxing atmosphere rather than that of a commuter train (there's so much you can do with LEDs these days, led very much by the long-haul airlines). I'm sure FISA would work with them on certifying the LEAN, or Grammer on the ICE3000 as used on the ICE in Germany in both classes, though really it could be done more cheaply with a new base and back cushion.

 

[Master29]

You're actually not in the minority - the vast, vast majority of passengers tell mystery shoppers, surveys, research and the TOCs directly that catering is actually a fair way down their list of priorities, despite what a few of these forum bleaters 'evidence' by repeatedly telling us their rose-tinted buffet car anecdotes.

Sure, there are issues with the IETs that need to be sorted out, but they are far from the starvation-causing polluting cattle trucks some would have you believe.

It is possible nationally that many rail users do consider a buffet car way down on their list of priorities as you put it but I doubt it`s the vast majority. If so why haven`t other TOC`s done away with their buffet sections? You obviously don`t use the Paddington to Penzance route do you with your assertions. No one said they were starvation causing. If you understood the dynamics of the West of England line you might think a little differently. It`s not about rose tinted visions of GWR halcyon days, it`s a valid point that has a clear case on this particular line and one that I believe GWR have clearly ignored.

 

[gsnedders]

It is possible nationally that many rail users do consider a buffet car way down on their list of priorities as you put it but I doubt it`s the vast majority. If so why haven`t other TOC`s done away with their buffet sections?

In the majority of cases they can't legally do so: they're contractually obliged (through the franchise agreement) to provide buffets.

 

[northernbelle]

It is possible nationally that many rail users do consider a buffet car way down on their list of priorities as you put it but I doubt it`s the vast majority. If so why haven`t other TOC`s done away with their buffet sections? You obviously don`t use the Paddington to Penzance route do you with your assertions. No one said they were starvation causing. If you understood the dynamics of the West of England line you might think a little differently. It`s not about rose tinted visions of GWR halcyon days, it`s a valid point that has a clear case on this particular line and one that I believe GWR have clearly ignored.

They have:
CrossCountry - reduced from buffet to trolley
SWT - reduced from buffet to trolley
Chiltern - removed all catering
Southern - removed all catering
EMT - reduced buffet cars in favour of more trolleys

I use the route on a nearly daily basis, and the majority of passengers on each train didn't/don't use the buffet. Far more notice the impact of limited seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I use the route on a nearly daily basis, and the majority of passengers on each train didn't/don't use the buffet. Far more notice the impact of limited seating.

There is another aspect to this. If you provide a minibuffet with a small standing area (which would be about the size of two table bays, so a loss of just 8 seats), you may find quite a few people will happily stand there and have a pint, spilling over into the adjacent vestibule. People used to willingly cram into the "pub" on the Brighton Belle, because a pub is an environment where you do stand and cram in a bit at times, and people are by and large satisfied with this, evidenced by them not just going to a different pub instead. Once this was gone, they became irritated people standing in door vestibules instead.

Of course with that concept you can have a bit of both - design it as a trolley dock with a specially designed trolley, and if it's quiet the trolley can be taken out (with freshly boiled hot water from being connected to a train supply in the dock) and some at seat service provided with just one member of staff.

With regard to the Class 800, while I quite like the good legroom that is provided, you could easily create space for a minibuffet like that by just taking 0.5-1" off the legroom throughout the unit, which would just make it about the same as the HST.

 

[404250]

It is possible nationally that many rail users do consider a buffet car way down on their list of priorities as you put it but I doubt it`s the vast majority. If so why haven`t other TOC`s done away with their buffet sections? You obviously don`t use the Paddington to Penzance route do you with your assertions. No one said they were starvation causing. If you understood the dynamics of the West of England line you might think a little differently. It`s not about rose tinted visions of GWR halcyon days, it`s a valid point that has a clear case on this particular line and one that I believe GWR have clearly ignored.

I was under the impression many TOCs offer a trolley service simply because they had to promise it on certain routes to win the bid. Nothing to do with making money on it or providing a service passengers request. Would a trolley service even make a profit?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was under the impression many TOCs offer a trolley service simply because they had to promise it on certain routes to win the bid. Nothing to do with making money on it or providing a service passengers request. Would a trolley service even make a profit?

Lots of things don't make a profit. Providing it is part of providing a quality experience on a long distance service.

 

[404250]

Lots of things don't make a profit. Providing it is part of providing a quality experience on a long distance service.

If that's the case I'd definitely get rid of the trolleys and kitchens, have more seats, and lower ticket prices.

 

[43096]

Lots of things don't make a profit. Providing it is part of providing a quality experience on a long distance service.

Absolutely. DB’s Bordbistro and Bordrestaurant services don’t make a profit but DB Fernverkehr takes the view that they are fundamental part of their product offering in attracting passengers, so they have been retained.