Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

[a_c_skinner]

It is, apparently, the signalling/train control system that will be the ruling factor.

 

[hwl]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47967766



Looks terrible. Honestly I'd be surprised if this is finished in 2022. It's really turning into London's version Berlin Brandenburg Airport at this point...

Nothing new or surprising.

 

[samuelmorris]

A round 3 years on top of the original opening dates should cover it. It'll probably be less. From what I can gather it should only take 18 months to finish the stations. The question is over what pace work has progressed since the delay announcement. The fact that contractors, presumably over their agreed hours/working schedule, now seem to have stopped work, is what will lengthen the delay if anything. The actual train testing still seems to be continuing, if slowly.

 

[Elshad]

They should use this time to dump the Elizabeth line name and go back to Crossrail. There would even be some justification for it to avoid embarrassing the Queen with delays.

 

[PR1Berske]

They should use this time to dump the Elizabeth line name and go back to Crossrail. There would even be some justification for it to avoid embarrassing the Queen with delays.

I mean, I don't want to be insensitive, it's just that any significant delay could result in the line being named in remembrance rather than tribute!

 

[sprunt]

Isn't this something of a non-story? The essence seems to be "If testing goes well it will open earlier, if testing goes badly it will open later." which isn't exactly rocket science.

 

[Hadders]

It’s all part of the standard Bank Holiday bashing of the railways. The lead two items on the news this morning were Crossrail and HS2.

The rail industry really should be more media savvy in dealing with the media at Bank Holidays rather than letting what are otherwise slow news days be used for railway ‘bashing’.

 

[Mikey C]

It’s all part of the standard Bank Holiday bashing of the railways. The lead two items on the news this morning were Crossrail and HS2.

The rail industry really should be more media savvy in dealing with the media at Bank Holidays rather than letting what are otherwise slow news days be used for railway ‘bashing’.

The rail industry/TfL/DfT deserves bashing over Crossrail, as the way the delay to the original opening date was announced at the last minute did suggest to everyone that it was a minor delay, when clearly parties had been covering up the various problems and how severe there were

This delay not only is affecting TfL's finances (causing various important schemes to be postponed or cancelled) it will also have an adverse affect on the chances of Crossrail 2 every happening.

 

[kevin_roche]

Next week there is an item on the agenda of the London Assembly Transport Committee to <quote>note the completed and outstanding actions arising from previous meetings of the Committee, and additional correspondence.</quote>

This includes the slides from last years meetings of the Elizabeth Line Readiness Board. I have not had time to read them yes so I don't know what might be revealed but they can be seen here following the letter from Mike Brown if you want to read them.

 

[Hadders]

The rail industry/TfL/DfT deserves bashing over Crossrail, as the way the delay to the original opening date was announced at the last minute did suggest to everyone that it was a minor delay, when clearly parties had been covering up the various problems and how severe there were

This delay not only is affecting TfL's finances (causing various important schemes to be postponed or cancelled) it will also have an adverse affect on the chances of Crossrail 2 every happening.

Agree that the situation regarding Crossrail isn’t good. But I do wonder why this criticism always ends up being magnified at Bank Holidays...

I wonder what the lead story will be in Daily Mail over the weekend...

 

[AM9]

The rail industry/TfL/DfT deserves bashing over Crossrail, as the way the delay to the original opening date was announced at the last minute did suggest to everyone that it was a minor delay, when clearly parties had been covering up the various problems and how severe there were ...

That's a standard tactic on any large multi-threaded project, - several groups/functions are harbouring delays in their own programme but they are all waiting for somebody else to blink first. Once slip on a critical milestone gets in the public domain, all the others problems get extra time in the overall re-scheduled programme. That way, the first slipping sub-project gets all the blame.

 

[squizzler]

Does it make sense at this juncture to rip out the proprietary metro signalling used in the central core and go with an ETCS like that used in Thameslink? I seem to recall ETCS was now precise enough to stop at platform doors (and also understood this to be the reason they originally went with something else on Crossrail), and as an "open source"-esque standard ought to keep improving still further.

 

[higthomas]

Next week there is an item on the agenda of the London Assembly Transport Committee to <quote>note the completed and outstanding actions arising from previous meetings of the Committee, and additional correspondence.</quote>

This includes the slides from last years meetings of the Elizabeth Line Readiness Board. I have not had time to read them yes so I don't know what might be revealed but they can be seen here following the letter from Mike Brown if you want to read them.

Hmm, this slide from the February meeting seems to suggest to me that the idea that everything seemed huncky-dory till August was rather a lie.

 

[kevin_roche]

Hmm, this slide from the February meeting seems to suggest to me that the idea that everything seemed huncky-dory till August was rather a lie.

All the Red backs up the suggestion that there were a number of delays each of which might possibly be caught up if alone but would together have knock on effects.

 

[Busaholic]

It’s interesting that if you were to go back ten years or so how many people, including a number of politicians on the route, were apparently so desperate to get Crossrail extended to Reading. The details of the metro stock and stopping patterns were pretty much foreseeable, but IMHO possibly drowned out by the extension supporters.

“Be careful what you wish for” is the obvious phrase that comes to mind...

I opined on here a year or three back that the decision to extend to Reading would come back and bite TfL on the posterior: it wasn't planned with Reading commuters in mind and that lot will both call the shots and get all the publicity for their 'woes': it'll be to the general detriment of all other users in Berkshire and West London, mark my words. Too late to reverse that decision now, no doubt, despite all the delays.

 

[JonathanH]

I opined on here a year or three back that the decision to extend to Reading would come back and bite TfL on the posterior: it wasn't planned with Reading commuters in mind and that lot will both call the shots and get all the publicity for their 'woes': it'll be to the general detriment of all other users in Berkshire and West London, mark my words. Too late to reverse that decision now, no doubt, despite all the delays.

Reading has for ever been the natural end point of suburban services from Paddington. The other option is running to Maidenhead and forcing people to change trains there and then again at Reading if travelling West.

Extension to Reading is nothing about getting people from Reading to use Crossrail trains to get to central London. It is about retaining connectivity for people in West London and East Berkshire to Reading.

 

[JamesRowden]

It’s interesting that if you were to go back ten years or so how many people, including a number of politicians on the route, were apparently so desperate to get Crossrail extended to Reading. The details of the metro stock and stopping patterns were pretty much foreseeable, but IMHO possibly drowned out by the extension supporters.

“Be careful what you wish for” is the obvious phrase that comes to mind...

I think those passengers will appreciate having a 4tph off-peak service between Reading and Maidenhead, rather than the reduction to 2tph which was planned (with no through services between Reading and Taplow for example).

 

[BowesRanger]

Apologies if there's a thread this question would be better posed in. Re Crossrail 2, does this delay, and the fact that the signalling seems to be the major issue, mean that CR2 (if it happens at all) would be more likely to be reduced to a self contained system. Ie more like a tube line, rather than integrated into the National Rail system at either end?

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Apologies if there's a thread this question would be better posed in. Re Crossrail 2, does this delay, and the fact that the signalling seems to be the major issue, mean that CR2 (if it happens at all) would be more likely to be reduced to a self contained system. Ie more like a tube line, rather than integrated into the National Rail system at either end?

I think a self-contained line would be harder to sell; part of the Crossrail aim is to remove suburban services from termini and require passengers to interchange less.

When Crossrail was being designed, ETCS (European Train Control System, the new pan-European signalling standard) was still in its infancy and no implementations existed that were known to be compatible with platform edge doors, so that's why CBTC (communications-based train control I believe that acronym is) was specified for delivery. But now that it has matured and the rest of the UK will eventually move over to ETCS, I think Crossrail 2 would use ETCS in the Core and an ETCS resignalling would be prompted on either side.

 

[hwl]

Reading has for ever been the natural end point of suburban services from Paddington. The other option is running to Maidenhead and forcing people to change trains there and then again at Reading if travelling West.

Extension to Reading is nothing about getting people from Reading to use Crossrail trains to get to central London. It is about retaining connectivity for people in West London and East Berkshire to Reading.

Not going to Reading was originally about not station rebuild risks and not wanting to pay for Reading station electrification, hence Reading station completed and DfT paying for Maidenhead-Reading electrification and work having started is a good point to announce extending to Reading

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The Mail has a story about the new 345s for Crossrail sitting unused at Old Oak Common.

That at least says they have the trains delivered and waiting, even if the stations and signalling systems aren't finished.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ins-worth-1bn-sitting-idle-depots-London.html

Stretching away into the distance, row upon row of Crossrail's high-tech trains stand idle in a depot.

They are part of a £1billion fleet that should by now have been carrying more than half a million passengers a day on the new Elizabeth line from Reading, under central London, and out to Abbey Wood in south-east London and Shenfield in Essex.

Instead, more than 50 of the new trains are sitting idle, with most of them stored at a new multi-million-pound depot in Old Oak Common in north-west London.

 

[hwl]

I think a self-contained line would be harder to sell; part of the Crossrail aim is to remove suburban services from termini and require passengers to interchange less.

When Crossrail was being designed, ETCS (European Train Control System, the new pan-European signalling standard) was still in its infancy and no implementations existed that were known to be compatible with platform edge doors, so that's why CBTC (communications-based train control I believe that acronym is) was specified for delivery. But now that it has matured and the rest of the UK will eventually move over to ETCS, I think Crossrail 2 would use ETCS in the Core and an ETCS resignalling would be prompted on either side.

Agreed, these current problems won't be an issues for CR2.

 

[hwl]

All the Red backs up the suggestion that there were a number of delays each of which might possibly be caught up if alone but would together have knock on effects.

Yep looks like complete failure to understand what was dependent and what was independent.

 

[Hadders]

These sort of huge projects often end up late and over budget. The Jubilee Line extension was 3 years late which was hugely embarrassing and saw loads of adverse media reaction at the time.

No-one now would seriously suggest that it shouldn’t have been built.

The same will be true of Crossrail and HS2 and CR2.

 

[hwl]

Does it make sense at this juncture to rip out the proprietary metro signalling used in the central core and go with an ETCS like that used in Thameslink? I seem to recall ETCS was now precise enough to stop at platform doors (and also understood this to be the reason they originally went with something else on Crossrail), and as an "open source"-esque standard ought to keep improving still further.

Thameslink Core doesn't have ETCS as such but a custom ETCS overlay on a more a more traditional Invesys (now Siemens) interlocking and control. However it has proved the stopping element (which is actually semi-independent of ETCS)

The Crossrail signalling and communications contracts was also had ridiculously low budget...
Hence I'd expect red ink for Siemens (and partners) on both contracts.

 

[kevin_roche]

Apologies if there's a thread this question would be better posed in. Re Crossrail 2, does this delay, and the fact that the signalling seems to be the major issue, mean that CR2 (if it happens at all) would be more likely to be reduced to a self contained system. Ie more like a tube line, rather than integrated into the National Rail system at either end?

I already read somewhere that ETCS is planned for CR2. There are plans in the Network Rail Plans for CP6 to install it between Woking and Waterloo as an overlay. However I believe the main concern is that the current GSM-R or GPRS radio elements which are crutial can't cope in Central London where there will eventually be more traffic than it was really designed to cope with. There talk of support using LTE or 5G as a replacement. I don't know how realistic that is, but perhaps it could happen if the ETCS experts start working on it soon?

 

[kevin_roche]

The Mail has a story about the new 345s for Crossrail sitting unused at Old Oak Common.

That at least says they have the trains delivered and waiting, even if the stations and signalling systems aren't finished.

Ahh! but if the software doesn't work are they actually ready to use?

 

[Chester1]

Apologies if there's a thread this question would be better posed in. Re Crossrail 2, does this delay, and the fact that the signalling seems to be the major issue, mean that CR2 (if it happens at all) would be more likely to be reduced to a self contained system. Ie more like a tube line, rather than integrated into the National Rail system at either end?

It will delay Crossrail 2 because the lost revenue and extra work are wrecking TfLs finances. The whole project is reliant on TfL and the councils being prepared to take a £32bn risk. The government has offered to lend half the money if the rest is paid locally during construction. It is far from certain that it will be built.

 

[Mag_seven]

The call for heads to roll has now started:

London's top transport boss should consider quitting, a report into Crossrail's delays has recommended.

The project, to build a new railway underneath central London, was due to open in December 2018 but it might not open until 2020 at the earliest.

A report by the London Assembly has recommended Transport for London (TfL) commissioner Mike Brown reflect "on whether he is fit to fulfil his role".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48014807

 

[hwl]

The actual report hot of the press from the Assembly Transport committee.

Summary Blurb here:
https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/assembly/...

Download full report here:
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/fina...

SK is already in full denial mode saying they were all kept in the dark by the former crossrail management…

The independent reviewer (Jacobs) multiple reports that there were problems were ignored.

Jacobs March 2018: "The schedule is ambitious, contains virtually no float, and relies upon right-first time delivery at productivity rates that have not been sustained in the past. There is therefore a high risk that the start dates for Stage 3 Opening, Trial Running and Trial Operations will not be achieved."