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Stagecoach disqualified from three franchise competitions

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GrimShady

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Agreed a thousand times over. I find Virgin's forced brand of humour to be nauseating and infantile. I resolutely do not want someone's attempts at faux mateyness and office jokeresque patter rammed down my throat. If i want entertainment on the train, I'll listen to music and read a book.



If have never ever met anyone who has found Virgin's twaddle entertaining. There had to be someone out there who liked it and you're he. That must make you an endqngered species.

I just (as per the Spitting image song) meet a nice white South African to complete the set.

Agree with everything said here. Attempted humour like this only reminds me of prats like David Brent.
 
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ainsworth74

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I think that's enough of part XXVI of the "Voyagers are terrible! No they're not!" saga. This isn't the thread for it so if anyone wishes to continue please start a new one. Any further such posts are liable for deletion.
 

edwin_m

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National Express bought thirteen two coach 170s to provide stopping services every sixty minutes (each) from London to Nottingham/ Derby (as well as occasional extensions to Burton/ Matlock/ Barnsley). These services stopped regularly at stations south of Leicester, rather than the haphazard stopping pattern that the HSTs had - and also allowed the HSTs to be sped up. However these services were designed to wait ten minutes (?) at Leicester, connecting with the HST services, so very slow all the way from London to Nottingham/ Derby
This is all correct but did mean that passengers between London and north of Leicester had an effective half-hourly service either by a direct fast or by catching the fast half an hour later and changing into the slow that it overtook at Leicester. The service for those journeys is arguably worse today, particularly for Nottingham, where the faster train has extra stops at EM Parkway and Market Harborough and the slower one takes about 20min longer than the fast so doesn't create anything like a half-hourly London service. This should improve a bit with the Corby electric service, provided they avoid the temptation to leave the Bedford and Wellingborough calls in the Nottingham semi-fast.
 

jon0844

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(thinking about Virgin...)

It's funny how some people seem to think the company will change overnight?
How do we know the new company won't continue the wackiness that's been built up over the years?
It sure isn't going to change within a few months!

Well, the staff won't change personality just by getting a new uniform.
 

Rail Blues

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Well, the staff won't change personality just by getting a new uniform.
Re-education camps. Electric shocks every time they put out a kerazee tweet and instant dismissal for anyone who suggests anything to do with talking toilets.
 

Mathew S

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Re-education camps. Electric shocks every time they put out a kerazee tweet and instant dismissal for anyone who suggests anything to do with talking toilets.
There are so many miserable people on here. What on earth is wrong with having fun?
 

The Ham

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I think that's enough of part XXVI of the "Voyagers are terrible! No they're not!" saga. This isn't the thread for it so if anyone wishes to continue please start a new one. Any further such posts are liable for deletion.

Only 26 times, it seems a lot more than that! (Sorry off topic).
 

duffield

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There are so many miserable people on here. What on earth is wrong with having fun?

I don't think it's miserable to find forced repetetive corporate 'humour' considerably less fun than piles.
I spend a lot of time watching comedy that I've chosen or chuckling over life's oddities and find humour in all sorts of situations, but the Virgin 'humour' to me is like Mr Bean, leaves me stony faced.

I think the point is that humour is very indivdual and I resent corporate humour because it seems to say 'Here' (shoves something in face) 'You'll find this funny, yes you will, all of you!'. If it's a TV advert I can change channel or mute it. If it's a talking train toilet I'm forced to listen to it (often several times on a long journey).

No, I'm not obsessed with it, it doesn't make me furious, or even spoil my journey but it is irritating.

Perhaps instead of quiet coaches there should be 'fun-free' coaches with non-talking toilets etc.:E
 

Robertj21a

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I don't think it's miserable to find forced repetetive corporate 'humour' considerably less fun than piles.
I spend a lot of time watching comedy that I've chosen or chuckling over life's oddities and find humour in all sorts of situations, but the Virgin 'humour' to me is like Mr Bean, leaves me stony faced.

I think the point is that humour is very indivdual and I resent corporate humour because it seems to say 'Here' (shoves something in face) 'You'll find this funny, yes you will, all of you!'. If it's a TV advert I can change channel or mute it. If it's a talking train toilet I'm forced to listen to it (often several times on a long journey).

No, I'm not obsessed with it, it doesn't make me furious, or even spoil my journey but it is irritating.

Perhaps instead of quiet coaches there should be 'fun-free' coaches with non-talking toilets etc.:E


It must be me then. I rather like the talking toilets, something different and quite clever. Too many serious and boring people around nowadays.
 

Bletchleyite

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It must be me then. I rather like the talking toilets, something different and quite clever. Too many serious and boring people around nowadays.

I quite like the bold, confident branding, but to me that was one step too far. Let me at least have a wee in peace.

(What I *do* like in the bogs, which I think VT did first, is the way most TOCs are now vinyling them up to make them look quite a lot less grim and to deter vandalism - a particular favourite is Eurostar's "Thomas Crapper").
 

cactustwirly

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I quite like the bold, confident branding, but to me that was one step too far. Let me at least have a wee in peace.

(What I *do* like in the bogs, which I think VT did first, is the way most TOCs are now vinyling them up to make them look quite a lot less grim and to deter vandalism - a particular favourite is Eurostar's "Thomas Crapper").

Austrian RailJets also have the vinyl stickers in the toilets, I believe one is Skiing, and the other one a forest?
 

infobleep

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Not sure if this has been quote but it seemed suitable here:
Julian Glover: Insane train franchising system requires an urgent rethink
....
As a result, the East Midlands line has gone to the Dutch rail operator Abellio which promises all sorts of goodies for a route on which I spend a fair bit of my life. Those who run franchising tell me this shows the system is working: the best bid won and firms that don’t accept the rules aren’t indulged.

So should we care about what’s happened to Stagecoach? Yes. Why? Because it shows that the terms demanded by the Government to win a franchise are now commercially insane. Only a business backed by a government, like the Dutch, can afford to carry the sort of long-term downside risk winning a franchise requires.

Stagecoach bet silly money when it took on the East Coast. Once stung, twice shy. It didn’t make the same mistake this time, and so follows National Express out of the industry — at least in Britain. National Express still competes and wins rail contracts in Germany, showing it’s not British companies that are weak, but our rules.

Stagecoach ran South West Trains out of Waterloo better than its successor, but lost the contract last year. We’re left with competitions in which few firms dare compete — and that means a broken system, as the head of the current rail review Keith Williams has said. He knows what the DfT, still trying to award contracts, won’t admit. With four franchises reputed to be on the brink of collapse, issuing more isn’t clever.
https://www.standard.co.uk/business...k-a4120431.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

I'm not certain that South Western Railway are worse or if they are, it would have been better on South West Trains at this point in time.

Having said that we wouldn't have had the strikes but I don't know with Mr Glover is referring to that or the service more generally.
 

Wolfie

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Not sure if this has been quote but it seemed suitable here:

https://www.standard.co.uk/business...k-a4120431.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

I'm not certain that South Western Railway are worse or if they are, it would have been better on South West Trains at this point in time.

Having said that we wouldn't have had the strikes but I don't know with Mr Glover is referring to that or the service more generally.
You missed the most significant part of the Glover article. He was a former SPAD (a Special Advisor i.e. a Minister's personally appointed political adviser) in DfT who was in post at the time of the WCML franchise debacle. If folk like that think that the current system is stuffed then it really is time for the current incumbents to think again. Mind you, Failing Grayling is more interested in BREXIT than he is in doing his job properly. He is an inverse Midas - everything he touches turns to ****e.. .
 

infobleep

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You missed the most significant part of the Glover article. He was a former SPAD (a Special Advisor i.e. a Minister's personally appointed political adviser) in DfT who was in post at the time of the WCML franchise debacle. If folk like that think that the current system is stuffed then it really is time for the current incumbents to think again. Mind you, Failing Grayling is more interested in BREXIT than he is in doing his job properly. He is an inverse Midas - everything he touches turns to ****e.. .
As this thread is about Stagecoach, I thought it best I focused on them, so I didn't stay too far off topic.
 

Wolfie

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As this thread is about Stagecoach, I thought it best I focused on them, so I didn't stay too far off topic.
That makes sense l guess albeit that the two things are irretrievably intertwined.
 

talltim

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[.n]

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Not sure if this has been quote but it seemed suitable here:

https://www.standard.co.uk/business...k-a4120431.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

I'm not certain that South Western Railway are worse or if they are, it would have been better on South West Trains at this point in time.

Having said that we wouldn't have had the strikes but I don't know with Mr Glover is referring to that or the service more generally.

I'm fairly certain (and this is the opinion of my fellow travellers) that a continued SWT run franchise would be infinitely better than the shambolic horrendous mess that is SWR
 

Robertj21a

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I'm fairly certain (and this is the opinion of my fellow travellers) that a continued SWT run franchise would be infinitely better than the shambolic horrendous mess that is SWR


As many of us had guessed as soon as we heard that Stagecoach had lost it.
 

robk23oxf

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Stagecoach are banned from the next three completions - would this include XC?

They were banned from the three ongoing competitions. East Midlands has been awarded so the other two were West Coast and South Eastern. They're allowed to bid for any future new tenders.
 

Elecman

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Stagecoach are banned from the next three completions - would this include XC?

But little point if DaFT/ Treasury want the same Pension arrangement as at the East Midlands/ South Eastern/ West Coast as they won’t take that Commercial risk so no point spending the thick end of £1,000,000 bidding
 

whhistle

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Stagecoach are banned from the next three completions - would this include XC?
Whether Stagecoach want to bother holding on or not is the real question.

I'm not sure of any train company that doesn't run trains already?
It would be a hard slog as they'd have to employ a bid team (paying them from the buses profits I bet), then sack many of them off and pull in managers from the bus business to form the new TOC (and replace them) or recruit external - all of which will cost a lot of money.

Richard Branson seems more interested in American rail at the moment, although I'm sure I read he was moaning about that too! If he really wants to change things, stop pratting about with this "Elders" movement and get into Government! Then perhaps he'll realise you can't just do things the way he wants.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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According to an article in today's Times, two weeks before the bids were due in, the DfT sent Abellio an email that included attachments which detailed part of Stagecoach's bid:
Stagecoach has demanded an independent inquiry into the government’s handling of rail franchising after it emerged that sensitive information was leaked to its main rival just before it was stripped of a big contract.

The British transport group branded the process “materially flawed” after details of its bid for the East Midlands franchise were inadvertently emailed to Abellio before the Dutch-owned company took over the network.

Details of the leak emerged just over a week after ministers stripped Stagecoach of the contract and banned it from bidding for two other lines. Stagecoach said last night that the leak exposed “wider questions” about the Department for Transport’s handling of other rail competitions.

It is the latest controversy to hit the franchising programme and raises the prospect of the government being exposed to a legal challenge by the Perth-based transport operator.

Seven years ago an inquiry criticised the department’s “damning failure” over the award of the west coast mainline franchise. The contract was stripped from Virgin Trains in 2012 only for it to be reinstated after a number of significant flaws over the process emerged, leading to the suspension of three senior civil servants and a bill of £40 million for the taxpayer.

Ministers insisted that the franchising system had since been tightened up, but the latest development will raise further doubts.

Four bidders were shortlisted last year for the East Midlands franchise, which carries 27 million passengers a year between London St Pancras, Luton, Leicester, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield. They included Abellio and Stagecoach, the current holder.

The Times understands that confidential elements of Stagecoach’s bid strategy were emailed by a senior official at Network Rail, the state-owned infrastructure operator, to executives at Abellio who were involved in the development of its bid. Bidders are free to liaise with Network Rail over issues such as timetabling as proposals are prepared.

The alleged breach occurred on August 22, a fortnight before the deadline for bids. The email included details of Stagecoach’s train service and fleet strategy — powerfully weighted elements of the overall bid — as well as performance improvement initiatives, details of investment in stations, plans to improve customer experience and organisational details.

The department said that an investigation into the breach was launched by an independent IT expert who concluded that email attachments were not opened. It said it was satisfied that Abellio had not accessed the information.

However, Stagecoach has criticised an alleged delay in launching the inquiry, which was started several months after the original leak. The outcome was delivered in late February.

Last week the department awarded an eight-year contract to run the East Midlands franchise to Abellio, starting in August. Stagecoach was stripped of the franchise and barred from bidding for the west coast partnership, which includes HS2, and for South Eastern.

The decision was attributed to Stagecoach’s refusal to take on the full historical pension liabilities of railway workers. It is seeking further explanations. Last night it also called for a wider inquiry into the East Midlands award.

A spokesman for Stagecoach Group said: “We are extremely concerned at what is a serious breach of the integrity of the procurement process and the failure of the Department for Transport to investigate it either promptly or adequately. We do not consider the matter closed and we believe there should be a fresh independent investigation into the confidentiality breach.”

The department denied any suggestion that the competition was flawed. A spokesman said: “An expert third-party investigation established conclusively that Abellio did not access information relating to any other bidders that affected their bid. There was no effect whatsoever on the outcome. Stagecoach disqualified themselves from the process by lodging non-compliant bids.”

Abellio was approached to comment.

The department has commissioned a wider review of the railways from Keith Williams, a former chief executive of British Airways.

Oh dear, I can feel the prospect of a judicial review inching ever closer...
 

Agent_Squash

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This will destroy franchising, I suspect. Not because of the inherently flawed system itself, but because of the idiots who've messed it up so badly at the DafT.
 

Meerkat

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That must have been tortuous for the Abellio bods who got the emails!!
Angel on one shoulder saying “don’t jeopardise the competition......”
Devil on the other saying “go on, you know you want to!!”
 

hwl

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So the DafT tainted the bidding process? Oops...
"confidential elements of Stagecoach’s bid strategy were emailed by a senior official at Network Rail, the state-owned infrastructure operator, to executives at Abellio who were involved in the development of its bid."
No if you read the article NR System Operator. The forensic analysis showed they didn't open the attachments.
 
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