Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?

[Puffing Devil]

Yet again there's a whole raft of Sunday cancellations in Northernland:

Manchester Piccadilly - Stoke

All services have been cancelled. Rail replacement buses will operate between Stockport and Stoke.

Lancaster - Morecambe

All services have been cancelled. An hourly bus replacement service will be in operation between Lancaster and Morecambe.

Preston - Hellifield

The two round trips have been cancelled. A bus replacement service will be provided from Preston.

Lancaster - Preston

All services have been cancelled. Customers are advised to use other operators' services.

Manchester Oxford Road - Blackpool North

All services have been cancelled. An hourly bus replacement service will be in operation between Bolton and Preston.

Salford Central - Wigan North Western

All services have been cancelled. An hourly bus replacement service will be in operation between Bolton and Wigan.

Manchester Airport - Liverpool South Parkway

All services have been cancelled. Customers should use the Northern stopping service between Manchester and Hunts Cross, then the Merseyrail services to Liverpool South Parkway.

Are Northern being penalised in any way by the regulator for these cancellations? What can we do to bring more pressure on them?

 

[RightAwayGuy]

To be fair, lots of this is due to Easter engineering.

 

[fireftrm]

These are not Northern cancelling services, they (or whoever wrote this) have made it sound like it was them and cancellations, these are all services that are not running due to planned Easter engineering works. Therefore Northern will not be penalised in anyway, shape, or form. They will be compensated. It was a very silly post as it is a very well publicised set of closures and hardly difficult to work out even if you hadn't read the many news stories about this weekeknd's rail works

 

[scrapy]

These are not Northern cancelling services, they (or whoever wrote this) have made it sound like it was them and cancellations, these are all services that are not running due to planned Easter engineering works. Therefore Northern will not be penalised in anyway, shape, or form. They will be compensated. It was a very silly post as it is a very well publicised set of closures and hardly difficult to work out even if you hadn't read the many news stories about this weekeknd's rail works

Whilst there are amendments and trains not running due to engineering works, the services that the OP mentions were all in journey planners until Thursday or Friday this week and are on routes not closed due to engineering.

 

[Matt_pool]

In the past Northern have cancelled the Manchester Airport to Liverpool services and blamed it on engineering when all other services using those routes have operated as normal.

So there's nothing new there! Blaming it on engineering sounds more plausible than telling customers there aren't enough drivers!

 

[Essan]

There's no mention of engineering work on the Northern website and as far as I can see engineering work listed on Nat Rail site doesn't affect most of these routes. Also, they give the advice to use other TOCs on the same route .... So it does look like most of this is down to staffing issues. No-one wants to work overtime at Easter!

 

[Tetchytyke]

these are all services that are not running due to planned Easter engineering works.

None of these are on lines affected by engineering work.

It's clearly a staff shortage.

 

[30907]

In the past Northern have cancelled the Manchester Airport to Liverpool services and blamed it on engineering when all other services using those routes have operated as normal.

So there's nothing new there! Blaming it on engineering sounds more plausible than telling customers there aren't enough drivers!

For once they arent blaming it on engineering. I think we may safely assume that there aren't enough drivers willing to work tomorrow.

The issue has been well discussed, most recently here
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-north-west-sunday-crew-shortages.175791/

 

[bobbyrail]

VTWC must have driver shortages as well then because their services through Preston are nearly all replaced by Buses the ones that are not are being diverted Via Bolton, TPE Manchester airport to Lancaster services are also on divert via Bolton.

 

[Crossover]

VTWC must have driver shortages as well then because their services through Preston are nearly all replaced by Buses the ones that are not are being diverted Via Bolton, TPE Manchester airport to Lancaster services are also on divert via Bolton.

The VTWC bit is related to various bits of engineering work. Line blocked around Oxenholme and between Wigan and Crewe, I believe (as well as Euston being closed and a line block between Birmingham International and Rugby)

 

[Puffing Devil]

These are not Northern cancelling services, they (or whoever wrote this) have made it sound like it was them and cancellations, these are all services that are not running due to planned Easter engineering works. Therefore Northern will not be penalised in anyway, shape, or form. They will be compensated. It was a very silly post as it is a very well publicised set of closures and hardly difficult to work out even if you hadn't read the many news stories about this weekeknd's rail works

Any chance of an apology for your very silly post, as there seems to be an agreement that the majority of these are due to staff shortages?

Whilst there are amendments and trains not running due to engineering works, the services that the OP mentions were all in journey planners until Thursday or Friday this week and are on routes not closed due to engineering.

In the past Northern have cancelled the Manchester Airport to Liverpool services and blamed it on engineering when all other services using those routes have operated as normal.

So there's nothing new there! Blaming it on engineering sounds more plausible than telling customers there aren't enough drivers!

There's no mention of engineering work on the Northern website and as far as I can see engineering work listed on Nat Rail site doesn't affect most of these routes. Also, they give the advice to use other TOCs on the same route .... So it does look like most of this is down to staffing issues. No-one wants to work overtime at Easter!

None of these are on lines affected by engineering work.

It's clearly a staff shortage.

For once they arent blaming it on engineering. I think we may safely assume that there aren't enough drivers willing to work tomorrow.

The issue has been well discussed, most recently here
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-north-west-sunday-crew-shortages.175791/

And to cap it all, their own Twitter account said:

This has been caused by train crew shortages and planned engineering work.

If a franchise can't organise it's staffing to meet service commitments, it should have the franchise removed.

 

[Scott M]

This is the problem with TOCs relying on rest day working/overtime to meet their basic timetable - when nobody wants to work the more popular days off the timetable cannot be met.

But it will never change as long as it makes financial/business sense until the government forces them to do so. And quite rightly so - they are businesses, not charities. Obviously it is still annoying though!

 

[onlinespotting]

Manchester - Stoke is definitely due to engineering works, VT and XC are running via crewe

 

[Puffing Devil]

Manchester - Stoke is definitely due to engineering works, VT and XC are running via crewe

A quick check of a Journey Planner and/or Real Time Trains will show that both Virgin and Cross Country are running between Manchester and Stoke today.

 

[causton]

Manchester - Stoke is definitely due to engineering works, VT and XC are running via crewe

Not all of them are! I took a train via Stoke today...
(Or at least I would have but a late one via Crewe arrived first! They are definitely running though)

 

[onlinespotting]

There has been at least one day this weekend where XC and VT were running Stoke to Manchester via crewe saw the poster in the station - May have been good Friday

 

[Puffing Devil]

There has been at least one day this weekend where XC and VT were running Stoke to Manchester via crewe saw the poster in the station - May have been good Friday

That may be the case. You could have invested 1 minute on checking your thoughts before posting incorrect information as fact.

A sorry I was wrong wouldn't go amiss.

 

[onlinespotting]

Seriously - who do you think you’re talking to? I’m not getting into the childish blame game I often see on posts here. ‘May have been good Friday’ pointed out my error - I saw the poster briefly yesterday while catching a train.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There has been at least one day this weekend where XC and VT were running Stoke to Manchester via crewe saw the poster in the station - May have been good Friday

Manchester-Stoke very definitely open all Bank Holiday Weekend.
Disruption earlier in the week with a fatality near Macclesfield & Thursday (I think) a points failure at Macc too. But no planned alterations other than Northern today. Everyone else running all weekend as normal (well, not to Euston, but you know what I mean)

 

[Puffing Devil]

Seriously - who do you think you’re talking to? I’m not getting into the childish blame game I often see on posts here. ‘May have been good Friday’ pointed out my error - I saw the poster briefly yesterday while catching a train.

I know I'm talking to someone who's become defensively aggressive when called out on an easily avoidable mistake causing loss of face.

 

[fireftrm]

Any chance of an apology for your very silly post, as there seems to be an agreement that the majority of these are due to staff shortages?


And to cap it all, their own Twitter account said:



If a franchise can't organise it's staffing to meet service commitments, it should have the franchise removed.

Irrespecitve of what may have shown elsewhere
Manchester to Stoke - planned to be a bus due to engineering works
Lancaster to Morecambe - ditto
Preston to Hellifield is a special service and the Clitheroe Services are bus replacements due to engineering works so this would have to be too
Blackpool to Manchester - shown as bus replacements due to engineering works
Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central (hence Manc Air to Liv S Parkway) shown as bus replacements due to engineering works.
So, no I am not going to apologise for my 'silly' post

 

[Deafdoggie]

Irrespecitve of what may have shown elsewhere
Manchester to Stoke - planned to be a bus due to engineering works

So why are all other trains running normally? Why was it not announced till a couple of days before? Why are Northern still blissfully unaware this is the case and blaming crew shortages?

 

[scrapy]

Irrespecitve of what may have shown elsewhere
Manchester to Stoke - planned to be a bus due to engineering works
Lancaster to Morecambe - ditto
Preston to Hellifield is a special service and the Clitheroe Services are bus replacements due to engineering works so this would have to be too
Blackpool to Manchester - shown as bus replacements due to engineering works
Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central (hence Manc Air to Liv S Parkway) shown as bus replacements due to engineering works.
So, no I am not going to apologise for my 'silly' post

I'm not sure where you've got your information from but from the weekly operating notices.

Manchester to Stoke is open Virgin and Cross Country are using it. Only possession is before 05.00 so would not affect Northern.

Lancaster to Morecambe open after 09.20. There is an OHLE isolation due to work further North but wont affect Northerns diesels.

Clitheroe is open and there are train services running to Salford Central and no possessions to Hellifield.

There are no bus replacements running to Blackpool. The only bus replacements are from Wigan to Preston as line closed and Bolton to Preston to cover Northerns cancelled trains (due to driver shortages). Limited stop Northern services are running on this line so line is open.

Liverpool via Warrington is open from Hunts Cross to Manchester. Northern have cancelled some services due to no drivers. They were originally planning to run a semi fast service as well from SouthPkway to Man Airport but these canned due to no drivers.

 

[robbeech]

Irrespecitve of what may have shown elsewhere
Manchester to Stoke - planned to be a bus due to engineering works
Lancaster to Morecambe - ditto
Preston to Hellifield is a special service and the Clitheroe Services are bus replacements due to engineering works so this would have to be too
Blackpool to Manchester - shown as bus replacements due to engineering works
Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central (hence Manc Air to Liv S Parkway) shown as bus replacements due to engineering works.
So, no I am not going to apologise for my 'silly' post

Where is this data from ?

 

[nr758123]

But it will never change as long as it makes financial/business sense until the government forces them to do so. And quite rightly so - they are businesses, not charities. Obviously it is still annoying though!

Not sure that there is anything right about Northern being allowed to get away with cancelling services every Sunday because of their own unwillingness to deal with their staffing issues.

They are receiving shedloads of taxpayers money in order to provide the level of service as set out in the franchise - that includes all the Sunday services which they are cancelling because of staff shortages.

They are a business which should fulfil the contractual obligations which they freely entered into. There's nothing "right" about choosing not to fulfil their contractual obligations. The government should use every means at their disposal to force Northern to provide the service that we the taxpayers are paying for.

 

[PHILIPE]

Irrespecitve of what may have shown elsewhere
Manchester to Stoke - planned to be a bus due to engineering works
Lancaster to Morecambe - ditto
Preston to Hellifield is a special service and the Clitheroe Services are bus replacements due to engineering works so this would have to be too
Blackpool to Manchester - shown as bus replacements due to engineering works
Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central (hence Manc Air to Liv S Parkway) shown as bus replacements due to engineering works.
So, no I am not going to apologise for my 'silly' post

Can you answer me a question. How did trains manage to run between Manchester and Stoke via Macclesfield, Clitheroe, between Blackpool and Manchester and via Warrington Central. I'll give you Morecambe. There may have been buses for particular locations but trains ran.

 

[Arrpi87]

I saw a replacement bus picking up passengers from Church & Oswaldtwistle today. So looks like the Blackpool <-> Colne wasn't running either.

 

[Bungle965]

I saw a replacement bus picking up passengers from Church & Oswaldtwistle today. So looks like the Blackpool <-> Colne wasn't running either.

Manchester to Chester suffered heavily also.
15:06,19:06 and 21:06 all cancelled from Manchester.
Sam

 

[Llanigraham]

Not sure that there is anything right about Northern being allowed to get away with cancelling services every Sunday because of their own unwillingness to deal with their staffing issues.

They are receiving shedloads of taxpayers money in order to provide the level of service as set out in the franchise - that includes all the Sunday services which they are cancelling because of staff shortages.

They are a business which should fulfil the contractual obligations which they freely entered into. There's nothing "right" about choosing not to fulfil their contractual obligations. The government should use every means at their disposal to force Northern to provide the service that we the taxpayers are paying for.

Unfortunately, the Government cannot force employees to work on days they are not contracted to do so.

 

[fireftrm]

Where is this data from ?

Its on Northern's website under Engineering Works