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Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?

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fireftrm

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I'm not sure where you've got your information from but from the weekly operating notices.

Manchester to Stoke is open Virgin and Cross Country are using it. Only possession is before 05.00 so would not affect Northern.

Lancaster to Morecambe open after 09.20. There is an OHLE isolation due to work further North but wont affect Northerns diesels.

Clitheroe is open and there are train services running to Salford Central and no possessions to Hellifield.

There are no bus replacements running to Blackpool. The only bus replacements are from Wigan to Preston as line closed and Bolton to Preston to cover Northerns cancelled trains (due to driver shortages). Limited stop Northern services are running on this line so line is open.

Liverpool via Warrington is open from Hunts Cross to Manchester. Northern have cancelled some services due to no drivers. They were originally planning to run a semi fast service as well from SouthPkway to Man Airport but these canned due to no drivers.
Engineering work timetables on Northern's website not news but there for certainly a week - all shown as bus replacements, maybe they were using an excuse but that's where they have the timetables
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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Why is that unfortunate? Surely that should read 'fortunately employees cannot be forced to work on days they are not contracted to do so'

The point being made is that the DfT has little appetite for ensuring the reliable delivery of Sunday services if it means adding additional cost to the franchise. The passengers whose interests the DfT have genuine concerns for are those who use the railway to travel to/from work and largely use season tickets which provide the base revenue especially for franchises providing mostly local services. Revenue from weekend leisure travellers on Northern is bonus money but clearly not sufficient to make the issue of reliable Sunday operation any sort of priority given the significant changes to employee t's & c's needed to make it happen.
 

Llanigraham

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Why is that unfortunate? Surely that should read 'fortunately employees cannot be forced to work on days they are not contracted to do so'

Agreed on the employees side, but I was responding to the OP, and for him it is UNfortunate.
 

Bovverboy

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Irrespecitve of what may have shown elsewhere
Manchester to Stoke - planned to be a bus due to engineering works

That is what is implied, but we know that XC/VT trains have operated, so the real reason is presumably staff shortage.

Lancaster to Morecambe - ditto

Someone has stated elsewhere that the line has been open since early this morning, therefore same comment.

Preston to Hellifield is a special service and the Clitheroe Services are bus replacements due to engineering works so this would have to be too

Trains have been running all day between Clitheroe and Salford Central and the Northern website has not suggested there was ever any other intention.

Blackpool to Manchester - shown as bus replacements due to engineering works

Bus replacement only between Preston and Wigan North Western - again, this is clear enough on the Northern website.

Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central (hence Manc Air to Liv S Parkway) shown as bus replacements due to engineering works.

It was clear on the website that stopping trains would be running between Manchester Oxford Road and Hunts Cross. Bus replacements between Hunts Cross and Liverpool Lime Street only.

So, no I am not going to apologise for my 'silly' post

Well I'm afraid that your post wasn't frightfully accurate.
 

nr758123

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Unfortunately, the Government cannot force employees to work on days they are not contracted to do so.

I haven't the faintest idea why you should reply to my comment about Northern failing to provide the service they are contracted to provide with such a remark. I have not suggested that the government should force employees to work on days they are not contracted to do, nor would I ever make that suggestion.

The failure is on Northern's part, not its employees.

Northern should be fulfilling their franchise obligations, and on behalf of taxpayers and passengers the government should be holding them to account. I don't understand why expecting a company to meet its contractual obligations could be considered controversial.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I suppose one potential explanatjon for the seemingly disparate causes of crew shortages and engineering works is this. When I went through Manchester earlier today, bearing in mind it wasn't even that early (perhaps 10am), there were still a number of possessions on a number of lines. Those mean that whilst it may still be possible to run some services, it won't necessarily be possible to run even a normal Sunday service due to capacity and platforming constraints. I saw, for example, that some of the lower numbered platforms in Piccadilly were inaccessible from the main WCML. So it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the causes of staff shortages and engineering works couldn't both be true.
 

bramling

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The point being made is that the DfT has little appetite for ensuring the reliable delivery of Sunday services if it means adding additional cost to the franchise. The passengers whose interests the DfT have genuine concerns for are those who use the railway to travel to/from work and largely use season tickets which provide the base revenue especially for franchises providing mostly local services. Revenue from weekend leisure travellers on Northern is bonus money but clearly not sufficient to make the issue of reliable Sunday operation any sort of priority given the significant changes to employee t's & c's needed to make it happen.

This is an excellent post and I think sums up the situation exactly. A few erratic leisure journeys on some weekends simply isn’t worth incurring significant extra costs for the industry.
 

Starmill

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This is an excellent post and I think sums up the situation exactly. A few erratic leisure journeys on some weekends simply isn’t worth incurring significant extra costs for the industry.
If so, cull the existing services that cannot be provided on current resources. Then you'll see how many people these 'erratic leisure journeys' represent.
 

Starmill

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When I went through Manchester earlier today, bearing in mind it wasn't even that early (perhaps 10am), there were still a number of possessions on a number of lines.
This is quite normal for Sunday morning. Lots of routes don't even have a service before 0900 - 1000.
 

bramling

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If so, cull the existing services that cannot be provided on current resources. Then you'll see how many people these 'erratic leisure journeys' represent.

I’m not saying they’re not numerous, however it pales into insignificance compared to peak loads.

Add in that weekends are a complete pain operationally. Engineering works, staff that don’t really want to work weekends, odd demand patterns influenced by variable factors like weather and events compared to the week when a given service normally loads similarly from one day/week to the next.

Meanwhile, from a revenue point of view there will be some using their season ticket (so nil extra revenue), pretty much everyone else on an off-peak (thus discounted) ticket, and many seats taken up by children on child fares or in some cases not paying a fare at all.
 

Bovverboy

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Okay, today's not a Sunday, it's a Bank Holiday, but there's obvious similarities. First and third Chat Moss stoppers towards Liverpool already cancelled this morning. The intervening one (0600 ex Vic) doesn't call at Eccles or Patricroft, so there's potentially a two-hour wait for anyone wanting to board at either of those stations.
At least there's consistency - both the cancelled journeys were cancelled because of a problem at the depot. Trouble is, they're worked from different depots!
 

jamesst

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Okay, today's not a Sunday, it's a Bank Holiday, but there's obvious similarities. First and third Chat Moss stoppers towards Liverpool already cancelled this morning. The intervening one (0600 ex Vic) doesn't call at Eccles or Patricroft, so there's potentially a two-hour wait for anyone wanting to board at either of those stations.
At least there's consistency - both the cancelled journeys were cancelled because of a problem at the depot. Trouble is, they're worked from different depots!

Maybe the 'problem at the depot' was the train couldn't be moved because no crew turned up!!!
 

nedchester

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Unfortunately, the Government cannot force employees to work on days they are not contracted to do so.

True, but about time the TOCs got Sunday in the working week. Otherwise BBQ Sunday’s like this will become more common.

A factor may also be that I’m hearing a little bit of disquiet due to the drivers being offered a much high pay rise than other workers........
 

Starmill

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I’m not saying they’re not numerous, however it pales into insignificance compared to peak loads.

Add in that weekends are a complete pain operationally. Engineering works, staff that don’t really want to work weekends, odd demand patterns influenced by variable factors like weather and events compared to the week when a given service normally loads similarly from one day/week to the next.

Meanwhile, from a revenue point of view there will be some using their season ticket (so nil extra revenue), pretty much everyone else on an off-peak (thus discounted) ticket, and many seats taken up by children on child fares or in some cases not paying a fare at all.
Fine. As I say if you're so concerned about the financial viability of the existing services then why not simply withdraw them and see how you get on from a publicity perspective? That seems to be what you're advocating, anyway.
 

Wolfie

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This is an excellent post and I think sums up the situation exactly. A few erratic leisure journeys on some weekends simply isn’t worth incurring significant extra costs for the industry.
Dare to say that publicly and see the ****-storm that erupts, particularly in Westminster...
 

Wolfie

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I’m not saying they’re not numerous, however it pales into insignificance compared to peak loads.

Add in that weekends are a complete pain operationally. Engineering works, staff that don’t really want to work weekends, odd demand patterns influenced by variable factors like weather and events compared to the week when a given service normally loads similarly from one day/week to the next.

Meanwhile, from a revenue point of view there will be some using their season ticket (so nil extra revenue), pretty much everyone else on an off-peak (thus discounted) ticket, and many seats taken up by children on child fares or in some cases not paying a fare at all.
The railway is not operated for the convenience of TOCs and their staff. If they do not meet the franchise requirements they should be penalised hard and if necessary stripped.
 

robbeech

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Its on Northern's website under Engineering Works
I think this rather proves the point, staff shortages are the main culprit here and it's cleverly* listed as engineering works.

*Where by there might be an issue for the first hour of the day, Northern have used engineering works as the excuse to not have a service all day whereas in reality, its a staff shortage. I'm not sure how many of these it applies to but this is how it reads to me for at least some.
 

bramling

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Fine. As I say if you're so concerned about the financial viability of the existing services then why not simply withdraw them and see how you get on from a publicity perspective? That seems to be what you're advocating, anyway.

Many weekend rail services are sufficiently patchy and unreliable that they're already useless. My local rail service is one of them, I simply don't use it at weekends unless the cars are out of action for any reason, and this is on a rather busier railway than anything on Northern. The simple reality is no one cares sufficiently.

Note how nearly every rail story in the media describes rail users as "commuters".
 

bramling

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Dare to say that publicly and see the ****-storm that erupts, particularly in Westminster...

Of course the DFT aren't going to say it in public, but that doesn't change reality. Joe and Sarah from Wetheral going for a Saturday's browsing at the MetroCentre simply doesn't feature high on DFT's priority list.
 

underbank

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Classic chicken and egg. The railway network is geared towards commuters and rush hours. Leisure and tourism isn't prioritised and so gets a generally poor service, particularly the reduced services at weekends, evenings, etc. Because it's a poor service, relatively few people use it for leisure and tourism. Because few people use it for leisure and tourism, the commuters and rush hour travellers are prioritised. And so it goes on.
 

GarethC

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I'm sure it has been mentioned on here before that at one point some TOCs (with union support) were pushing for Sundays to go into the working week but the DfT refused as it would cost more than relying on overtime to fill the shifts. Lower costs mean lower subsidy or more premium payments to the DfT.

If that is the case the DfT are not going to be putting pressure on the operators if they can't staff their Sunday services. Hence this will continue to be a problem every time we have a sunny weekend!

Out of interest, can anybody share which TOCs have 7 day working for drivers and guards?
 

221129

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The railway is not operated for the convenience of TOCs and their staff. If they do not meet the franchise requirements they should be penalised hard and if necessary stripped.
Whoever is running the franchise will have the same problems.
 

bramling

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I'm sure it has been mentioned on here before that at one point some TOCs (with union support) were pushing for Sundays to go into the working week but the DfT refused as it would cost more than relying on overtime to fill the shifts. Lower costs mean lower subsidy or more premium payments to the DfT.

If that is the case the DfT are not going to be putting pressure on the operators if they can't staff their Sunday services. Hence this will continue to be a problem every time we have a sunny weekend!

And, of course, 7-day working isn't a complete panacea either, as people still have the option to go sick if the weather is nice and they fancy a few days with the family. Indeed, in some ways there's *less* incentive to work as there would be no lucrative RDW to lose out on.
 
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bramling

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The railway is not operated for the convenience of TOCs and their staff. If they do not meet the franchise requirements they should be penalised hard and if necessary stripped.

So strip the franchise, incidentally against a background of reducing numbers of bidders, and a new franchise takes over with exactly the same issues arising. Something like Northern is already very heavily subsidised, so who's going to pay for all the extra drivers, which will take the best part of 2 years to recruit and train? It's clearly not a massively politically salient issue, or we'd hear more about it.

This is one of the paradoxes with Sundays having become increasingly more active for activities like shopping and leisure. Going back a few years, Saturday was the main such day, with a standard M-F service provided on most routes but without the peak hour service enhancements. Sundays meanwhile ran a much reduced skeleton service. Now it seems to be the case that we want to see a much more comprehensive Sunday service, but run on a shoestring. Add to this the same mentality we see at Christmas - "*I* don't want to work, but I expect the normal range of services to be available to me". Not an easy issue to resolve without involving substantial extra costs.

And looking at things from a purely personal perspective, I don't really use Sunday rail services, so why should I subsidise them? How about a hefty supplement on Sunday fares to cover the costs?
 
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Matt_pool

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What about all of the thousands of people who do work on Sundays, in retail, pubs and restaurants, office workers (especially call centres, now that customers demand a 24/7, 365 day a year service!), factory/warehouse workers etc etc etc....

Or should we just go back to offices only being open 9am - 5pm Monday to Friday, shops only open 9am - 5pm Monday to Saturday, half day closing on Wednesdays, and no shops open on Sunday except newsagents for a few hours in the morning!?
 

Bovverboy

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I think this rather proves the point, staff shortages are the main culprit here and it's cleverly* listed as engineering works.

*Where by there might be an issue for the first hour of the day, Northern have used engineering works as the excuse to not have a service all day whereas in reality, its a staff shortage. I'm not sure how many of these it applies to but this is how it reads to me for at least some.

All the evidence says that there were no engineering works taking place yesterday between Stockport and Stoke-on-Trent which potentially conflicted with any Northern services, and, from what I've read, there were none between Morecambe and Lancaster either. (In that instance, engineering works appear to have been scheduled to be completed well before the first Northern train was scheduled to run).

Yet no Northern trains operated on either line, at all.
 
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