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Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

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Bletchleyite

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if that ever happens, people will just go by air instead

More likely Megabus/NatEx would make a killing, as would LNR whose newly 8-car Trent Valley services (which are local services so would never be compulsory reservation - no country I know does that) would be full and standing once more - not only cheaper but the only tickets available!
 
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MarlowDonkey

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Where possible there should also be longer/additional trains run when there are major events. The May issue of Modern Railways reports that GWR are planning to run 12 coach 387s to move large number of passengers on additional services to Cardiff on rugby match days once the electrification is complete.

Borrowing the longer distance commuter stock for weekends has a long history. The 387s are suitably configured, you would not want to borrow 345s for such a distance, even though there's a fair few spare at present.
 

Bletchleyite

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Borrowing the longer distance commuter stock for weekends has a long history. The 387s are suitably configured, you would not want to borrow 345s for such a distance, even though there's a fair few spare at present.

Of course, this is an advantage you only get from having the local and IC TOC as the same body. But it's a great idea (not to mention the 387s having a higher standard of interior than the 800s too :D ).

And yes, it'd be great to have 12.350 doing additional VTWC services when things are really busy!
 

gazzaa2

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It does seem like the overcrowding on long distance services was at just about its worse this weekend.

A Tweet on the LNER feed caught my eye, in response to customers complaining about the busyness of services:



If you look at the LNER feed over much of the weekend, there's a lot of blaming busyness on flexible ticket holders. While this is just a Twitter team, there's a clear sense from multiple TOCs that they'd find a long-distance reservation system preferable in many ways. So I don't think it's just in Virgin that these views are held.

That said, I don't think we're likely to see anything like this introduced on a widespread scale across the rail network any time soon: it doesn't fit with an integrated network, with moves to encourage commuting, with people's expectations, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if one way of coping with engineering work in future would be to introduce reservation-only days though.

UK population has gone up nearly 10 million in 20 years. The infrastructure just can't cope with it. It gets worse every year with rising population figures.
 

Mintona

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For this to work I think extra trains need to be operated, or at least the loadings split. So take the Edinburgh route, I believe for most of the day there are 2tph. Have one train reservation only, and one train available with walk up fares. I appreciate for this to work both trains need the same calling pattern. Or keep both trains as now, and run a third train which is reservation only.

I don’t think this should be done to all trains, it removes too much flexibility.
 
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Here is the full Virgin Trains submission, to the Williams Review as published at 6am this morning.

All contained are IDEAS ONLY.
 

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  • Virgin Trains - Williams Review Submission.pdf
    2.4 MB · Views: 59

Old Yard Dog

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A barm pot idea. Rail travel is meant to be flexible - that's why I hardly ever buy advance tickets. I cannot cope with the stress of worrying about missed train or train/local bus connections. Or having to set out half and hour to an hour before I really want to to be sure I get to the station on time. What is the point of speeding up trains if you have to build in hours of contingency time?

Virgin are apparently saying this idea and shoulder pricing is a simplification of the fares structure! What planet are they living on?

Clearly their fat cat management don't understand the needs of their customers. Passengers can't plan the long distance part of their journeys in advance. Who knows how long a business meeting or a cricket match or just a day out is going to last?
 

gazzaa2

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For this to work I think extra trains need to be operated, or at least the loadings split. So take the Edinburgh route, I believe for most of the day there are 2tph. Have one train reservation only, and one train available with walk up fares. I appreciate for this to work both trains need the same calling pattern. Or keep both trains as now, and run a third train which is reservation only.

I don’t think this should be done to all trains, it removes too much flexibility.

It would also need every journey to go ahead.

A 1 under, broken down train, staff sickness etc that causes cancellations and you've got hundreds of passengers with a reservation, that will need to use the next available service but with all seats booked.
 

Bantamzen

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A barm pot idea. Rail travel is meant to be flexible - that's why I hardly ever buy advance tickets. I cannot cope with the stress of worrying about missed train or train/local bus connections. Or having to set out half and hour to an hour before I really want to to be sure I get to the station on time. What is the point of speeding up trains if you have to build in hours of contingency time?

Virgin are apparently saying this idea and shoulder pricing is a simplification of the fares structure! What planet are they living on?

Clearly their fat cat management don't understand the needs of their customers. Passengers can't plan the long distance part of their journeys in advance. Who knows how long a business meeting or a cricket match or just a day out is going to last?

The popularity of Advance tickets suggests otherwise, there are plenty of passengers who can plan their journeys in advance. Of course when it comes to things like sports matches you either need more flexibility, or need to plan for the worst case scenario. I've done a lot of rail miles over the years with my club, and the general rule is for anywhere where there is likely to be more than a few thousand at the game to leave plenty of padding just in case. There is after all always a pub / café / restaurant option that can be explored. And where this isn't necessarily possible plan alternative means of transport or plan an overnight stay.

As for business meetings (another area where I've done plenty of miles), certainly where I work there is a drive to reduce staff booking flexible tickets in favour of advances, and making sure that meeting hosts are aware of attendee travel requirements & better stick to agendas & timings, which has its advantages in that long introductions & mucking about gets replaced by actually dealing with the subject matter. Of course that's not always possible, but knowing that half the room needs to duck out for the 16:05 from New Street helps focus minds & move agendas on!
 

NLC1072

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Quite. The idea that local passengers could be barred from West Coast services running on the Coventry-Birmingham-Wolverhampton axis is laughable. They are a critical part of providing the capacity needed to shift the number of passengers there, due to the number of paths they eat up on what is essentially a two-track railway.
And the practice would be obsolete when HS2 opens as the WCML becomes a secondary route with more local trains...
 

Tetchytyke

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If you look at the LNER feed over much of the weekend, there's a lot of blaming busyness on flexible ticket holders

LNER are the TOC that first prevented flexible ticket holders from reserving seats, by restricting quotas for super off peak tickets but not advances, so the issue is entirely their own making. If flexible ticket holders can't reserve you'll get them taking their chances.
 

infobleep

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This is very, very bad news. There's no point in 3 trains an hour if you're limited to one booked train only.

What happens if the train is cancelled?
What happens if a connecting service is delayed?

Consider the 06:16 from Euston to Manchester. Pretty empty on leaving Euston but it calls at Stoke on Trent at 08:00 becoming the train for Stoke commuters as it arrives at Manchester at 08:28. It's wedged.

Would passengers boarding this train at Stoke need a reservation?
If Stoke passengers aren't allowed to board it what trains would they use (the rest are full)

There are loads of similar examples to this one.

My worry is that Virgin (or any other long distance train operator) will run a passenger survey which will give them the answer they want (eg. 'would you like to see the end to standing on long distance trains'). The DfT, who we all know don't understand how to run a railway, might then agree to implement saying that 'it's what passengers want'.

We need to be very, very careful.....
They would be allowed on the Virgin train, so long as they had a seat reservation.

I agree that isn't great got season ticket holders. How much increased admin would there be for people constantly requiring seat reservations every day?
 

Statto

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What do they do with no shows then, i caught VT service last Friday[Rugby to Liverpool], as i walked from coach A to coach F plenty of seats were reserved from Harrow & Wealdstone-Liverpool, but were unoccupied, i never took one up as i didn't know whether the passenger went the toilet or the on board shop, i caught the train as i went for a day out, Liverpool-Crewe then West Midlands Day Ranger, i didn't get paid until last Thursday so wouldn't have been able to book in advance.

Barmy idea
 

Peter Mugridge

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I believe a Concorde was used at least once.

More than once, and it was part of BA's marketing for the Shuttle that Concorde would appear every now and again.

The main point is, leaving aside the cost of running the spare aircraft even for just one person is that there is more room in the sky. On the railway you just don't have the paths available on the main lines to be able to do this standby concept.
 

sprunt

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I bet Megabus and NatEx would rub their hands together with glee, as it's much cheaper and easier for them to add capacity by hiring private hire coaches in as duplicates. It is no coincidence at all that Spain has a very buoyant coach industry indeed.

That's probably part of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's because the Spanish intercity coaches are (or were, the only time I used them 15 years ago) much more pleasant than a National Express - more leg room, better air-conditioning, just generally nicer.

Original Daily Telegraph article in OP said:
A Virgin spokesman said the new system could potentially allow the operator to put on more frequent trains at busy times of year, such as Christmas and Easter, to make up for the fact that fewer people will be allowed on the busiest services.

Surely what stops them from putting on more frequent trains at Christmas is the line capacity and rolling stock availability? The ticketing system used doesn't.
 

3141

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Calm down everyone! Context please!

This is Virgin’s submission to the Williams Review. This is absolutely not a firm proposal that will happen. It is an idea that Virgin are floating, along with slot auctions and the ability to run trains at quiet times.

You spoil-sport! :D
 

gka472l

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More likely Megabus/NatEx would make a killing, as would LNR whose newly 8-car Trent Valley services (which are local services so would never be compulsory reservation - no country I know does that) would be full and standing once more - not only cheaper but the only tickets available!

One thing to note about Megabus/NatEx…..they are already compulsory reservation!
 

RLBH

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I still think the XC lines need more capacity and maybe more frequency. But where does XC fit in- is it a true main line service or should it be regarded as a secondary operation?
Is Britain the only country where we would ask if the train service connecting the second, third and fourth largest cities together was really a main line service?
 

Hadders

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They would be allowed on the Virgin train, so long as they had a seat reservation.

I agree that isn't great got season ticket holders. How much increased admin would there be for people constantly requiring seat reservations every day?

What trains do the people who currently stand travel on (bear in mind the remaining trains are often crush loaded in the rush hour)? Or are you saying they can't travel by train?
 

Megafuss

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LNER are the TOC that first prevented flexible ticket holders from reserving seats, by restricting quotas for super off peak tickets but not advances, so the issue is entirely their own making. If flexible ticket holders can't reserve you'll get them taking their chances.

AP tickets also have a quota though. like over Christmas they stated the number of AP ticket had been reduced to enable more unreserved seats (this was a tweet they sent a customer). if you go too far the other way you end up with carriages full of reservations for tickets where people may choose to get a later train and therefore preventing someone else from reserving a space.
 

AM9

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The TOCs (and BR before them) have been managing demand by ticket pricing for years, yet the fact that expensive Anytime tickets still don't discourage everybody from travelling when they want/need to is evidence that UK rail is needed to run as a service for passengers. That is the essence of a public transport service. So VT would like to ban some from travelling to get their way, (and presumably create a seller's market for rail travel).
The current overloading of services is a symptom of the system failing to address the demand, and it would be ridiculous to punish some passengers so that others can have a more comfortable journey.
In essence, overloading is a self-limiting exercise as eventually there will be some who will exercise their choice and travel at different times toavoid standing, just as some drivers will eventually avoid travelling at the worst times during the rush-hour or holiday rush. That will improve the load factor of trains both in the peak and off-peak periods, thereby making better use of the infrastructure and rolling stock. As for the issue of flexible tickets causing much of the problem, providing they aren't abusing seat reservations, they are no more to blame than any other traveller. On the train, the price paid by each person is absolutely irrelevant, (assuming their ticket is valid) and those with cheaper tickets have chosen to accept the restrictions that those tickets normally mandate. Everbody can make the same choice.
So really, apart from Virgin staking a claim for a higher fare take overall, there's nothing to see here.
 

infobleep

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What trains do the people who currently stand travel on (bear in mind the remaining trains are often crush loaded in the rush hour)? Or are you saying they can't travel by train?
Well under the proposal they would only be on the service if they prebooked a seat and if they didn't do that then they would be on the next train. If they can't squeeze on then perhaps they need class 700s on all other seveices as that has more standing space. To be fair I don't know what other stock they use on the other services and what the standing space is like.

The only reason I can't suggest class 700 for Virgin is due to the fact they require people to have a seat. Of course if they just required people to have a reservation perhaps they could issue standing reservations.

People are issued a reservation entitling them to stand on the service. It would say which carriage they could stand in. Even which bit of the carriage they could stand in if that is helpful. So in the asile between seats such and such.

After all in most cases a ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat. So let's issue standing reservations. It would also make people more aware that a ticket doesn't include a seat as I don't think enough of the public are aware of this important point.
 

LeeLivery

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The thing is you ask all those people complaining about overcrowding whether they'd prefer waiting 30-60 mins for the next one or stand/sit on the floor, they'd rather get on.

This wouldn't help us. Because of track capacity, all it would do is create a situation where the supply of seats would be less than the number of people travelling. Thus, allowing the rail operators to artificially inflate prices. In addittion, less people want to fly domestically for environmental reasons, and lots of people hate coach travel so operators like Virgin know the demand would be even higher. It would prevent people from travelling when they need to and ultimately putting people off rail travel. Not just the Intercity services but also the connecting suburbans and rurals. Comparing their proposal to Eurostar is a red herring. Eurostar is a high speed, international service where you must go through customs. People expect such a system, we don't for domestic travel on a victorian railway, nor should we.

The other day I was looking at booking some Amtrak tickets for the summer as well as their (laughable) terms and cons of travel. Baffled at the price, I then ended up looking at flying instead. For the two of us, the fare for a 3-hour rail journey on the Northeast Regional (not even Acela) was the same for what I managed for London - Edinburgh by VTEC and Prem Inn for 3 nights for two adults last year, combined. And surprisingly, the airfare was almost the same. **cough** Price fixing **cough**. No wonder the Americans drive everywhere.

I think this is the biggest own goal in Virgin's beloved PR department they've ever had. Yes, they've said this before, but the report reads badly, so much so, that it felt like flexible travel and their success in passenger number growth is somehow an inconvenience to them. This in particular:
Imagine if airlines operated in the same way as train companies. They would be forced to accept whoever turned up at the gate, regardless of whether they had to stand in the plane’s aisle. Customers with certain tickets could turn up for any flight they liked, without telling the airline. There would be little or no restrictions on baggage, and every airline would be forced to sell tickets from any airport in the world to any other airport. In short, it would be pandemonium. And yet this is how we expect our long-distance railway to operate every day.

The comparisons are ridiculous. How dare people stand on a Pendolino. How dare Virgin Trains be part of a National Rail system where through ticketing is mandatory. I'm glad they'll soon be gone.
 

AM9

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... As for business meetings (another area where I've done plenty of miles), certainly where I work there is a drive to reduce staff booking flexible tickets in favour of advances, and making sure that meeting hosts are aware of attendee travel requirements & better stick to agendas & timings, which has its advantages in that long introductions & mucking about gets replaced by actually dealing with the subject matter. Of course that's not always possible, but knowing that half the room needs to duck out for the 16:05 from New Street helps focus minds & move agendas on!
That's a great recipe for tactically throwing a hand-grenade onto the table just when it's time to go. My experience in important meetings is that attendees time is more valuable than a few tens of pounds on train fares, and if the meeting didn't get through the agends then there was an on-cost to deal with the matter another time. I can only assume that some employers who obsess over fares are either low payers, or they regard attendees as token representatives rather than persons sent to do genuine work for the company.
 

David M

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I have donned my crash helmet and am ready to duck ... I think it's a great idea.
 

PeterC

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That's a great recipe for tactically throwing a hand-grenade onto the table just when it's time to go. My experience in important meetings is that attendees time is more valuable than a few tens of pounds on train fares, and if the meeting didn't get through the agends then there was an on-cost to deal with the matter another time. I can only assume that some employers who obsess over fares are either low payers, or they regard attendees as token representatives rather than persons sent to do genuine work for the company.
I have known company meetings where decisions went to the disadvantage of one rather obstructive participant as the meeting wasn't terminated when he walked out to catch his booked train.
 

PeterC

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I have donned my crash helmet and am ready to duck ... I think it's a great idea.
For a long distance point to point service with no intermediate traffic I would be tempted to agree.
 

Bletchleyite

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I have donned my crash helmet and am ready to duck ... I think it's a great idea.

It certainly has upsides, but my big fear is (as happens in Spain) that it is used to hide the provision of inadequate capacity rather than to actually ensure a seat for everyone with only the odd train sold out.

Of course, NatEx and Megabus no doubt hope it's the former, as they rarely "book up", they just hire in another coach. I've travelled "walk-up" on NatEx a number of times and a coach actually being full was very rare.
 

GodAtum

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I saw a Greater Anglia train at the station saying you must have a seat reservation before boarding. i guess they already do this?
 

Bletchleyite

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For a long distance point to point service with no intermediate traffic I would be tempted to agree.

One of the big problems in the UK is that we have very much gone for a high frequency "skip stop" approach, and unlike the Germans we don't have a RegionalBahn/RegionalExpress at least every two hours over every route that never has compulsory reservation. (I know DB don't have it on ICE either, but the concept is one that is needed to ensure people can travel if they need to).

For instance, if you extended the LNR Trent Valley service from Crewe up to Carlisle, then you might just get away with it, as there would be parallel services on the whole WCML.
 
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