Rail operators call for leisure fares (especially day returns) to increase

[Cdd89]

My concern here is the impacts on the Railcard scheme. The Network Railcard and Annual Gold Card, both offer no discounts on advance fares, which is an entire category of saving eliminated if these are to proliferate further. Moreover, the minimum fare charged on the Network Railcard makes return tickets a key part of the value proposition for tickets where the singles would hit the minimum fare.

 

[Hadders]

I wrote this in the thread about Northern ticket machine woes but it's highly relevant here so I'm repeating it.

If we move to single leg pricing it'll result in large fares increases for Off Peak travel which is why we need to be very wary.

Consider Stevenage - London Terminals. Current fares are:

Anytime Day Single £15.10
Anytime Day Return £22.70
Off Peak Day Return £17.90 (no evening restrictions)
Off Peak Return £28.90 (short evening restrictions)

There aren't any Off Peak Day or Off Peak Singles

I suspect single leg fares would be something like:

Peak £11.40
Off Peak £9.20 (I doubt it'll be half the Off Peak Day Return as the TOC will want to make up a bit of the premium they charge for the Off Peak Return)

Anyone travelling there and back in the peaks will be ok. They'll pay the same as they do now.
Anyone travelling out and back at Off Peak times would pay a bit more
Anyone travelling out after the morning peak but returning in the evening peak will pay significantly more.

Many off peak passengers from my local station use Network Railcards which have a £13 minimum fare. Will the minimum fare be reduced if we get single leg pricing - I very much doubt it, rendering the railcard useless and significantly increasing the cost of travel.

Single leg pricing sounds great, it will simplify fares but at a cost of large fare increases.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

My concern here is the impacts on the Railcard scheme. The Network Railcard and Annual Gold Card, both offer no discounts on advance fares, which is an entire category of saving eliminated if these are to proliferate further. Moreover, the minimum fare charged on the Network Railcard makes return tickets a key part of the value proposition for tickets where the singles would hit the minimum fare.

I don't think either of those Railcards could be kept as is under a system of major reform. They might still survive a less significant level of reform, if for example applied in the case of the Network Railcard to the daily cap.

 

[Hadders]

I don't think either of those Railcards could be kept as is under a system of major reform.

Off Peak fares increasing by 50% isn't going to go down well in the marginal constituencies of the south east.....

 

[SamYeager]

Off Peak fares increasing by 50% isn't going to go down well in the marginal constituencies of the south east.....

Begs the question as to whether the proposals put forward are a way of pushing the DFT into mostly keeping the existing system whilst perhaps closing off a few loopholes/retained rights from the TOC's point of view?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Off Peak fares increasing by 50% isn't going to go down well in the marginal constituencies of the south east.....

No, I'm not saying they should be scrapped, but that they will have to be reformed in a similar manner, with the minimum fare applied over the course of a day on smart ticketing media.

 

[JonathanH]

Off Peak fares increasing by 50% isn't going to go down well in the marginal constituencies of the south east.....

I doubt that any of the previous changes to the Network Railcard had any bearing on voting intentions.

It is all a balancing act - we know that off peak day returns will go up but some commuters will have cheaper fares.

Oyster / Contactless in London has been almost uniformly welcomed but it too led to price increases for some users. The difference between off peak and peak fares becomes more as you travel over longer distances.

Railcards don't provide any discount on Oyster fares in the evening peak (other than via capping and contra-flow into Zone 1 from outer areas).

 

[thedbdiboy]

My concern here is the impacts on the Railcard scheme. The Network Railcard and Annual Gold Card, both offer no discounts on advance fares, which is an entire category of saving eliminated if these are to proliferate further. Moreover, the minimum fare charged on the Network Railcard makes return tickets a key part of the value proposition for tickets where the singles would hit the minimum fare.

Neither are regulated anyway. The rules about which cards could be used with which tickets have changed previously to take account of changes to fare structures and there is no reason to suggest that this wouldn't happen with any future reform.

 

[Starmill]

The people who think with single leg pricing a current day return of £10 (with a single being £9.90) will suddenly become £5.00 are mistaken. If anything the new fare will be £5.50 so a price rise by the backdoor.

Or indeed, £9.50...

 

[thedbdiboy]

Single leg pricing does not require returns to be twice the single fare. It means that instead of the return being priced seperately from the single, it becomes a mathematically derived fare. So in future, if the single was £7.50, buying a return could still cost £10.00 because the formula used to calculate it could be set at Single (7.5) x 2 (15) divided by 1.5 (10). Why does this matter? Because by deriving fares from single fare values, it becomes infinitely possible to automatically calculate fares for any route, itinerary, integrated journey with other mode etc.
Do not confuse the need to restructure fares with the prices that are charged. The restucturing is needed to make the fares system capable of working in the digital age. The price of fares is a government decision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Single leg pricing does not require returns to be twice the single fare

Though you do need that to get most of the benefits, e.g. not overcharging people for 3-point journeys.

I'm not sure it would take much of a hike to make it revenue neutral - in the NSE area which is where you get most of the overlap people are mostly making day return journeys.

 

[Joe Paxton]

[Single leg pricing]
I'm not sure it would take much of a hike to make it revenue neutral - in the NSE area which is where you get most of the overlap people are mostly making day return journeys.

I wouldn't underestimate a significant minority of people making genuine period return journeys in the NSE area.

(Also don't want to push people onto the already busy roads if one can help it -'which is another, wider policy consideration.)

 

[JonathanH]

Single leg pricing does not require returns to be twice the single fare. It means that instead of the return being priced seperately from the single, it becomes a mathematically derived fare. So in future, if the single was £7.50, buying a return could still cost £10.00 because the formula used to calculate it could be set at Single (7.5) x 2 (15) divided by 1.5 (10). Why does this matter? Because by deriving fares from single fare values, it becomes infinitely possible to automatically calculate fares for any route, itinerary, integrated journey with other mode etc.
Do not confuse the need to restructure fares with the prices that are charged. The restucturing is needed to make the fares system capable of working in the digital age. The price of fares is a government decision.

I think one of the ideas this thread is envisaging the use of something like Oyster / Contactless whereby every journey would be priced explicitly as a single fare and there would be no returns. Then you do have returns priced at twice the single.

 

[adrock1976]

The only way I could see something that would be acceptable for single leg pricing at this moment in time is for the government to freeze the single regulated flexible fares, but let the equivalent flexible regulated fares increase in line with inflation as is presently the case, until it eventually becomes almost twice the price of a single.

I am unsure if there is a better way regarding the move to single leg pricing.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The only way I could see something that would be acceptable for single leg pricing at this moment in time is for the government to freeze the single regulated flexible fares, but let the equivalent flexible regulated fares increase in line with inflation as is presently the case, until it eventually becomes almost twice the price of a single.

I am unsure if there is a better way regarding the move to single leg pricing.

In the case of most Day Singles and Returns that would mean waiting around 20 odd years for the Return to be twice the single. I certainly agree with the sentiment but I'm not sure it is going to be a very popular idea (with the people who make the decisions on this) on account of the length of time it would take to implement!

 

[yorksrob]

I wouldn't underestimate a significant minority of people making genuine period return journeys in the NSE area.

(Also don't want to push people onto the already busy roads if one can help it -'which is another, wider policy consideration.)

Quite, speaking as someone who makes regular period return journeys in the NSE area to visit family. A massive hike in off-peak returns wouldn't be welcome.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I think one of the ideas this thread is envisaging the use of something like Oyster / Contactless whereby every journey would be priced explicitly as a single fare and there would be no returns. Then you do have returns priced at twice the single.

However that is not what the RDG report suggests so it shouldn't be assumed that has to happen under the proposals

 

[Adsy125]

From my perspective I need off peak period returns to make my travel in the NSE area by rail viable, and non flexible tickets just don't work for me. I think the rail industry assuming everyone that uses off peak tickets would be happy with a sudden big price increase will get a nasty surprise.

 

[FenMan]

Single leg pricing does not require returns to be twice the single fare. It means that instead of the return being priced seperately from the single, it becomes a mathematically derived fare. So in future, if the single was £7.50, buying a return could still cost £10.00 because the formula used to calculate it could be set at Single (7.5) x 2 (15) divided by 1.5 (10). Why does this matter? Because by deriving fares from single fare values, it becomes infinitely possible to automatically calculate fares for any route, itinerary, integrated journey with other mode etc.
Do not confuse the need to restructure fares with the prices that are charged. The restucturing is needed to make the fares system capable of working in the digital age. The price of fares is a government decision.

Thanks for the insight. However, I have a concern that currently viable itineraries will be priced out of contention.

Consider a journey from Blackwater to London. Currently, tickets are priced competitively compared with nearby Farnborough Main, even though the mileage from Blackwater to Waterloo or Paddington for the normal routeings via Guildford or Reading is considerably more than Farnborough Main to Waterloo. Likewise, there are many journeys from Blackwater to destinations beyond London Stations where tickets are valid to travel either way. How would the single fares from Blackwater be determined in the future?

 

[FenMan]

Virgin trains submission to DofT, as reported by the Daily Telegraph today, makes for interesting, if worrying, reading:-
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/23/standing-long-rail-journeys-banned-virgin-trains-plan/

Excerpt:-

Standing on long train journeys will be effectively banned under radical proposals by Virgin Trains to force all long-distance passengers to book a seat before boarding.
Train companies are currently often obliged to accept walk-up fares, meaning they have no control over the number of people getting on a particular train unless it is deemed unsafe.
But under the plans for airline-style fares with one fare available at any given time for any one service, walk on tickets and open returns will be phased out.

The rail operator, which is the largest provider of long distance train journeys in the UK, has submitted the plans to the Department for Transport which is currently reviewing how train companies make money and sell tickets.

In its submission to the Government-commissioned Rail Review, Virgin Group said some of its trains are so packed that passengers are forced to stand for several hours, while others are mostly empty. It called for ticketing to be simplified by introducing dynamic pricing, which would lead to higher prices for popular trains and lower prices for less popular trains.

 

[Taunton]

In its submission to the Government-commissioned Rail Review, Virgin Group said some of its trains are so packed that passengers are forced to stand for several hours, while others are mostly empty.

I had to stand recently from Birmingham to London Euston, along with many others standing right down the aisle. Was the reason that too many passengers had turned up? No, it was that a peak time (5pm) service is through routed all the way from Glasgow. It had run into problems up in the Lake District, and Virgin had seemingly no contingency at all for such a failure, just wait for the next service. Both would normally be expected to be well filled, although not overcrowded, at this time.

 

[yorksrob]

I had to stand recently from Birmingham to London Euston, along with many others standing right down the aisle. Was the reason that too many passengers had turned up? No, it was that a peak time (5pm) service is through routed all the way from Glasgow. It had run into problems up in the Lake District, and Virgin had seemingly no contingency at all for such a failure, just wait for the next service. Both would normally be expected to be well filled, although not overcrowded, at this time.

Quite. Virgin is the architect of its own misfortune in this respect.

If this is the best that Virgin can come up with, perhaps it's had its day.

 

[FenMan]

Quite. Virgin is the architect of its own misfortune in this respect.

If this is the best that Virgin can come up with, perhaps it's had its day.

Quite. This reads as though it was put together by someone who only has experience of managing fares for a point to point airline, which Virgins Trains manifestly is not. There are so many major holes in their "proposals" I hardly know where to start.

 

[BigCj34]

Or they just want to jack the prices up to £200 for a single to Preston. Nothing to stop them from lowering the fares on the less busy services though!

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

It can require reservation without all fares being themselves quota-controlled (as I pedantically refer to most 'advance' tickets). It would need machines to make and swap reservations at the last moment and even more military enforcement at the big stations. They may well be after the cheaper walk-up fares, the natural consequence of making everything dynamic, but it doesn't *need* to go that way.

 

[squizzler]

I am glad that standing is to be phased out. Overcrowding can be very anxiety inducing to many people. Besides there is the rail operator's own edge of quality to consider and people standing down the aisles does not result in a premium ambience. See how far you get ordering dinner in a fully booked restaurant on the basis that you don't need a table and you can just eat standing up between the other diners.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am glad that standing is to be phased out.

You do know that...
1. This is a submission of opinion by one organisation, it may not happen;
2. Abolition of standing is not proposed for regional services?

Overcrowding can be very anxiety inducing to many people.

Not half as anxiety-inducing as not knowing if you can even travel that day or not.

Besides there is the rail operator's own edge of quality to consider and people standing down the aisles does not result in a premium ambience. See how far you get ordering dinner in a fully booked restaurant on the basis that you don't need a table and you can just eat standing up between the other diners.

Most restaurants will do you a takeaway and you can stand outside and eat it, though.

 

[Starmill]

Not half as anxiety-inducing as not knowing if you can even travel that day or not.

This point is absolutely crucial. The people who (understandably, to an extent) are furious every Maundy Thursday afternoon that they can't sit down on London to Edinburgh trains would be considerably more unhappy if they had to sit down at Kings Cross overnight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This point is absolutely crucial. The people who (understandably, to an extent) are furious every Maundy Thursday afternoon that they can't sit down on London to Edinburgh trains would be considerably more unhappy if they had to sit down at Kings Cross overnight.

Quite.

See those news articles about people kipping down in airports you get when there's seriously bad weather?

Right, now imagine them every Friday evening at Euston. There's always at least something gets disrupted - where do those thousand passengers or so go? The YHA? VT suggests taxis - I bet they won't find 300 taxis willing to go up to Glasgow on short notice.

(VTWC is not, other than at a few very specific times, heavily overcrowded unless things go wrong - capacity is matched *very* well to demand in my experience)

 

[squizzler]

You do know that...
1. This is a submission of opinion by one organisation, it may not happen;
2. Abolition of standing is not proposed for regional services?

I agree that an intercity operator should handle this differently than local trains. I've lost count of people bleating on about 'intercity ambience', a standing persons elbow in the ear ruins ambience rather more more than 1/3, 2/3 door positions IMO.

Not half as anxiety-inducing as not knowing if you can even travel that day or not.

The same might be said to the person prone to panic attacks, autism or other conditions making crowding into a debilitating experience and who cannot use the service that they booked and paid in advance. Accessibility for those with disabilities is not just about wheelchairs.

Most restaurants will do you a takeaway and you can stand outside and eat it, though.

Do you propose that 'walk on' passengers in excess of capacity go on the roof?