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Fares via Halton Curve

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M28361M

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(There is already a long Halton Curve thread in the Infrastructure & Stations subforum, however my post relates specifically to fares and ticketing rather than the infrastructure, so I hope starting a new thread here is OK)

I found an article on Cheshire Live about the new Transport for Wales (TFW) Liverpool-Chester service via the Halton Curve, which starts on 19th May. I won't quote the whole thing because it doesn't really say anything new, except for this bit about the fares:

The fare structure has not been announced but the proposed fare for a single from Chester to Liverpool Lime Street is £5.90 with a day return priced £7.50 and a cheap day return at £6.

Interestingly, this claim doesn't seem to match what the ticket websites are currently offering. Looking on TFW Rail's booking engine for 19 May, it quotes £11.50 as the best price for a single Chester-Liverpool via the curve.

Assuming the article is correct, I guess these new, cheaper fares will be added at the next fares update in May, before the new service starts?

Secondly, I've been playing around, seeing what the best journey times will be for a trip to North Wales from my nearest "big" station, Liverpool South Parkway. However I cannot seem to convince any booking engines to route me via the Halton Curve.

Example: on TFWrail.wales, I searched Liverpool South Parkway to Llandudno Junction, departing 19 May at 09:30. All the journeys offered put me on Merseyrail via Liverpool Central and Birkenhead. If I put in Helsby as a via point to force a routing via the curve, I get "no journeys available". Similar results on GWR and Southern's websites. The National Rail journey planner will give times via Helsby but insists I need to split tickets. This despite the fact that going via Helsby is about 20 minutes faster.

My guess is the existence of the Halton Curve is not reflected in the routeing data yet? If so, what is the likelihood of this being fixed before May 19th? Would be sad if the new journey opportunities on the Curve are limited by problems with ticket booking.
 
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krus_aragon

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I think there are two aspects to this.

The Routeing Guide currently lists just one map for travel between Chester and Liverpool, CH. This only gives a mapped route via Hooton. There are no relevant easements that I can find.

The current fares offered, as listed by BRfares.com, are (adult single):
£11.30 via Warrington (fare set by TfW)
£7.50 via Birkenhead (Merseyrail)
£11.50 Any Permitted (TfW)
So the existence of a 'via Warrington' ticket adds that route to those considered by the ticket websites.

The existence of a direct train (or trains following the shortest route) from Chester to Liverpool via the Halton Curve makes that route available (with the Any Permitted ticket) even if the routeing guide doesn't have a map for it. However, by the rules of the routeing guide, you can only go that way on a direct train. The direct (Halton) service terminates at Chester and you'd have to change train to get to Llandudno Junction, so it's no longer a direct train journey, hence the ticket websites can't offer you a single ticket for travelling that way.

In summary: it doesn't look like the new fare for travelling via the Halton Curve has been added to the fares database yet (certainly not the BRfares site). When fares via the Halton Curve are introduced, ticket websites should offer travel via Helsby without insisting on splitting tickets. That should be done before May 19th. There may or may not be changes to the routeing guide too. (Remember that there have been services along the Halton curve for years, it's just that they've been limited to a dozen or so per year.)
 

Bletchleyite

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They certainly will need to cut the fare via the Halton Curve to the same as or cheaper than via Hooton - while Merseyrail is really quite slow, you do have 4tph, which offsets the quicker journey as it's not quicker if you have to wait 45 minutes extra for it because the timetable doesn't fit your plans.

That said, I think the main long-term use case isn't people going to Chester (who will continue to use Merseyrail) but people going through onto the North Wales Coast, possibly with holiday luggage making them less willing to change. That said, such people coming from the Northern Line rather than by taxi/bus from nearer Lime St will probably still find Merseyrail easier.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
 

nedchester

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They certainly will need to cut the fare via the Halton Curve to the same as or cheaper than via Hooton - while Merseyrail is really quite slow, you do have 4tph, which offsets the quicker journey as it's not quicker if you have to wait 45 minutes extra for it because the timetable doesn't fit your plans.

That said, I think the main long-term use case isn't people going to Chester (who will continue to use Merseyrail) but people going through onto the North Wales Coast, possibly with holiday luggage making them less willing to change. That said, such people coming from the Northern Line rather than by taxi/bus from nearer Lime St will probably still find Merseyrail easier.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

I think the main benefit is for those from Helsby and Frodsham going to Liverpool South Parkway (for the Airport) and Liverpool, a service they've not had before.

Especially now that there is a toll on the bridges at Runcorn for drivers.
 

kieron

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They certainly will need to cut the fare via the Halton Curve to the same as or cheaper than via Hooton - while Merseyrail is really quite slow, you do have 4tph, which offsets the quicker journey as it's not quicker if you have to wait 45 minutes extra for it because the timetable doesn't fit your plans.
TfW may be able to ask a small premium as their trains have onboard toilets and seat reservations, and it uses a ground level platform at the Liverpool end.

Choosing fares will be a little awkward as the Merseyrail Chester-Liverpool fare is cheaper than some of what will be intermediate fares for the route. They can do quite a bit with "TfW only" fares, but that doesn't help with something like Chester-Frodsham.

I just hope that the route doesn't end up like the Todmorden Curve, where no map combination use the route, and so even straightforward journeys such as Accrington-Stalybridge aren't valid that way.
 

janb

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Assuming the article is correct, I guess these new, cheaper fares will be added at the next fares update in May, before the new service starts?

When the future fares go live 4 weeks before the fares change date you should start seeing them in online journey planners.
Via Runcorn
SDS £5.90
CDR £6 (restriction code AW)
SDR £7.50
 

ForTheLoveOf

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When the future fares go live 4 weeks before the fares change date you should start seeing them in online journey planners.
Via Runcorn
SDS £5.90
CDR £6 (restriction code AW)
SDR £7.50
Are those end to end, Chester to Liverpool Lime Street fares? If so, those are really quite competitive with the existing fares via Birkenhead, let alone via Warrington which is ludicrously expensive. Will there be a new season ticket route via Runcorn, and if so, how much will that be?
 

alistairlees

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Are those end to end, Chester to Liverpool Lime Street fares? If so, those are really quite competitive with the existing fares via Birkenhead, let alone via Warrington which is ludicrously expensive. Will there be a new season ticket route via Runcorn, and if so, how much will that be?
Yes they are
 

janb

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Are those end to end, Chester to Liverpool Lime Street fares? If so, those are really quite competitive with the existing fares via Birkenhead, let alone via Warrington which is ludicrously expensive. Will there be a new season ticket route via Runcorn, and if so, how much will that be?

Yes that's Chester to Liverpool. No info on season tickets yet.
 

FrodshamJnct

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I think the main benefit is for those from Helsby and Frodsham going to Liverpool South Parkway (for the Airport) and Liverpool, a service they've not had before.

Especially now that there is a toll on the bridges at Runcorn for drivers.

Definitely. A direct to service into Liverpool will be really handy, plus the link to Runcorn.
 

M28361M

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When the future fares go live 4 weeks before the fares change date you should start seeing them in online journey planners.
Via Runcorn
SDS £5.90
CDR £6 (restriction code AW)
SDR £7.50

Thanks for this info. The SDR and SDS are cheaper than the "via Birkenhead" fare (£7.80/£7.50). The CDR is more expensive than the Merseyrail Day Saver (£5.30) and has an evening peak restriction which Merseyrail doesn't. So competitive for peak travel, not so much for offpeak (assuming Merseyrail don't adjust their own fares at the same time).
 

Sandfield

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Merseytravel free passes are available between Hooton and Chester. Unless there is to be a similar arrangement on the Runcorn line, it is unlikely many passengers with free passes will switch to the new service.
 

M28361M

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The "Via Runcorn" fares are now showing in journey planners. Annoyingly they only seem to exist for stations where the direct service calls, so there is a Liverpool South Parkway to Frodsham fare, but not (for example) Cressington to Frodsham via Runcorn.
 

kieron

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Annoyingly they only seem to exist for stations where the direct service calls, so there is a Liverpool South Parkway to Frodsham fare, but not (for example) Cressington to Frodsham via Runcorn.
Cressington-Frodsham is pretty straightforward. You just buy a Liverpool-Frodsham one and start short at Cressington. It's not TfW only, or anything like that. There are other routes where you couldn't do this, though.

Personally, I'm a little disappointed that there isn't a new Runcorn East-Runcorn ticket. It will be a lot more convenient under the new timetable than it is now, but there still won't be any through tickets to take advantage of this.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Presumably the route is included automatically in the Cheshire Day Ranger and Freedom of the North West Rovers?
I'll be using the former on something close to Day 1.
 

M28361M

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Presumably the route is included automatically in the Cheshire Day Ranger and Freedom of the North West Rovers?
I'll be using the former on something close to Day 1.

The Cheshire Day Ranger map on the National Rail website doesn't show the curve itself but all the stations on the route are there, so I assume it will be accepted.

The North West Rover map is more interesting. The line from Chester to Warrington is there, but not the line through Runcorn (main) - if travelling from Liverpool towards Crewe you seemingly cannot go south of Liverpool South Parkway. So I would say the bit between Frodsham and Liverpool South Parkway is not covered, unless there's an update to the Rover validity that hasn't been put online - the NRE site is notorious for having out of date info on Rovers.

Cressington-Frodsham is pretty straightforward. You just buy a Liverpool-Frodsham one and start short at Cressington.

Of course. My concern is that a casual traveller might not know this and either pay over the odds or be put off travelling. (Not that Cressington to Frodsham is going to be a major flow, I was just using that as the first example I found)
 

lyndhurst25

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My local station is a Waterloo (Merseyside). The journey time to Chester on Sundays is now 10 minutes quicker, changing at Liverpool South Parkway and using the new Halton Curve service, rather than MerseyRail all the way via Birkenhead. However, National Rail Enquiries is telling me that no through ticket is available and I'll have to buy multiple tickets to take the quickest route. I hope that they fix this, otherwise it's a total shambles.
 

M28361M

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My local station is a Waterloo (Merseyside). The journey time to Chester on Sundays is now 10 minutes quicker, changing at Liverpool South Parkway and using the new Halton Curve service, rather than MerseyRail all the way via Birkenhead. However, National Rail Enquiries is telling me that no through ticket is available and I'll have to buy multiple tickets to take the quickest route. I hope that they fix this, otherwise it's a total shambles.

Presumably this is the same problem krus_aragon mentioned in post #2 - there is no mapped route via the Halton Curve so it is only valid on direct trains or if it is the shortest distance route, neither of which apply here. Even if booking engines say no, I would hope that if you bought the ticket from a ticket office, the staff on the ground would apply a bit of common sense and allow travel via the Halton Curve.

Assuming this isn't fixed before 19 May, is there a way for us ordinary members of the public to request a change to the Routing Guide, or would it have to go through the TOC?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Presumably this is the same problem krus_aragon mentioned in post #2 - there is no mapped route via the Halton Curve so it is only valid on direct trains or if it is the shortest distance route, neither of which apply here. Even if booking engines say no, I would hope that if you bought the ticket from a ticket office, the staff on the ground would apply a bit of common sense and allow travel via the Halton Curve.

Assuming this isn't fixed before 19 May, is there a way for us ordinary members of the public to request a change to the Routing Guide, or would it have to go through the TOC?
Well, one could invoke the mythical "Disputed Routeing Procedure", although it isn't strictly speaking designed for routes that didn't even exist at the time of the creation of the Routeing Guide!
 

kieron

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The North West Rover map is more interesting. The line from Chester to Warrington is there, but not the line through Runcorn (main) - if travelling from Liverpool towards Crewe you seemingly cannot go south of Liverpool South Parkway.
Just to confirm, the version on the Northern site is the same. The rover doesn't cover all that much of Cheshire, so who knows whether they'll want to include this bit?
Of course. My concern is that a casual traveller might not know this and either pay over the odds or be put off travelling. (Not that Cressington to Frodsham is going to be a major flow, I was just using that as the first example I found)
It's certainly one of the things TfW could do, but haven't done yet.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Just to confirm, the version on the Northern site is the same. The rover doesn't cover all that much of Cheshire, so who knows whether they'll want to include this bit?

That's because the Rover map specifically excludes routes via Crewe, for some very odd reason - I'm sure it was included long ago.
But it does include Chester-Northwich-Stockport-Manchester, and the Chester-Liverpool line is completely within that boundary.
 

scrapy

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That's because the Rover map specifically excludes routes via Crewe, for some very odd reason - I'm sure it was included long ago.
But it does include Chester-Northwich-Stockport-Manchester, and the Chester-Liverpool line is completely within that boundary.
I don't think you can determine that a rover is valid on a route just because other routes are valid around it. It clearly isn't currently valid to Runcorn even though it's valid via Northwich. Whether or not it will be valid on the new TFW services isn't clear but I would suggest contacting them direct.
 

theshillito

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The parly Chester to Runcorn service was explicitly not included in the Cheshire Day Ranger map, for the record. I remember showing up with one and having to buy a ticket on the train.
 

Camden

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My local station is a Waterloo (Merseyside). The journey time to Chester on Sundays is now 10 minutes quicker, changing at Liverpool South Parkway and using the new Halton Curve service, rather than MerseyRail all the way via Birkenhead. However, National Rail Enquiries is telling me that no through ticket is available and I'll have to buy multiple tickets to take the quickest route. I hope that they fix this, otherwise it's a total shambles.
The new pricing looks a mess. If you want to travel to Liverpool Lime Street only, you can get the £7 fare. If you want to travel even the shortest distance by Merseyrail (including to connect to the service at Liverpool South Parkway) then you have a £5 premium on top. It's an active deterrent, including because by the time you make your way by other means to and from Liverpool Lime Street to where you actually need to be the time saving is all used up. The price difference between the Merseyrail route and the Halton curve route is negligible, and yet people will be forced to choose one or the other when buying their ticket which will open all sorts of inadvertent disputes too.

Given this service is being paid for by the Liverpool authorities, it seems beyond stupid to have resulted in something so unattractive and over-complicated.
 

Llandudno

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Looking to travel from Llandudno to Liverpool Lime Street for the day at the end of May.

National Rail and TfW website indicates that there are no fares available, or connections shown at Chester via the Halton Curve Route. All timings and fares shown are via Merseyrail.

I have even added ‘via Runcorn’ into the journey planner and no trains or fares are shown!

However, you can buy a ticket and timings are shown from Llandudno to Liverpool South Parkway via the Halton Curve using TfW trains throughout!

So, if I buy a day return from Llandudno to Liverpool can I travel outward via Hooton and return via Runcorn?
 

mmh

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Looking to travel from Llandudno to Liverpool Lime Street for the day at the end of May.

National Rail and TfW website indicates that there are no fares available, or connections shown at Chester via the Halton Curve Route. All timings and fares shown are via Merseyrail.

I have even added ‘via Runcorn’ into the journey planner and no trains or fares are shown!

However, you can buy a ticket and timings are shown from Llandudno to Liverpool South Parkway via the Halton Curve using TfW trains throughout!

So, if I buy a day return from Llandudno to Liverpool can I travel outward via Hooton and return via Runcorn?

Personally I'd just do it. If you buy a ticket to Liverpool from the coast you'll probably be told you have to change at Chester. My experience is the staff at Llandudno and Junction are very good at saying where you need to change, along with the guards who on most Llandudno - Manchester trains will announce "change here for Liverpool, Crewe, Wrexham etc" on approach into Chester, as they do when checking tickets too.

No doubt someone will be along shortly to say I'm wrong and it's not a permitted route (yet?), sigh.

To pre-empt that - a direct train is always permitted. Why would some direct trains after a mandatory interchange be valid and some not?
 

A Challenge

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Why would some direct trains after a mandatory interchange be valid and some not?
It isn't a direct from A-B, it is only from C (being an intermediate point, albeit at one you have to change). If you split there, however, a Chester (/Helsby/Frodsham) to Liverpool South Parkway(/Liverpool Lime Street) is valid. It is silly, but that is the rules. See #2 for a better explanation!
 
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