Trivia: Swallows and Amazons - how did the great Aunt get from Harrogate to the Lakes?

[Ken H]

Swallows and Amazons is set in the S lakes. much of the description sounds like Windermere, but with bits of Coniston Water thrown in. Its set between the 2 world wars.

One of the characters was the great aunt. We know she lived in Harrogate, and travelled to the lakes by train.

She says she prefers to travel from the station at the foot of the lake. i take that to mean lakeside Startion. But that line went to Ulverston, quite the wrong way.

What the kids referred to as Rio was obviously Bowness. Someone described rowing to the piers at 'Rio' and getting the bus up the hill to the station, which would be Windermere Station.

So how would you travel to and from Lake Windermere to Harrogate st that time?

Carnforth -Skipton - Ilkley - Otley - Harrogate
or go via Lancaster and via Hornby.
or do you go via Leeds. And have to cope with changing stations?

Remember, she was an elderly lady. travelling alone with a large trunk.

 

[simonw]

Plenty of porters to carry her case, even in war time. If she wanted to travel by Lakeside, why not ?

 

[Bevan Price]

Swallows and Amazons is set in the S lakes. much of the description sounds like Windermere, but with bits of Coniston Water thrown in. Its set between the 2 world wars.

One of the characters was the great aunt. We know she lived in Harrogate, and travelled to the lakes by train.

She says she prefers to travel from the station at the foot of the lake. i take that to mean lakeside Startion. But that line went to Ulverston, quite the wrong way.

What the kids referred to as Rio was obviously Bowness. Someone described rowing to the piers at 'Rio' and getting the bus up the hill to the station, which would be Windermere Station.

So how would you travel to and from Lake Windermere to Harrogate st that time?

Carnforth -Skipton - Ilkley - Otley - Harrogate
or go via Lancaster and via Hornby.
or do you go via Leeds. And have to cope with changing stations?

Remember, she was an elderly lady. travelling alone with a large trunk.

It might also mean Coniston station, on the closed branch line from Foxfield. In those days, almost every station had a porter, who would help to load luggage onto/off trains, and probably help an old person to transfer heavy luggage onto a taxi (or horse-drawn transport), and usually receiving a small tip.

Various routes were feasible, including those you list, and no station change would be necessary if she chose a route via Leeds Central.
If she went via Lancaster she could have changed at Green Ayre for a connection to Lancaster Castle.
Going via Carnforth then, as now, just needed use of the subway between platforms.
From either Lancaster or Carnforth, you needed only one change, at Ulverston or Foxfield to reach the branch lines; the change at Foxfield was simple, as the station consists of a single island platform.

(It is a long time ago, but do I recall correctly that the Ravenglass & Eskdale Railway appeared in some TV versions of Arthur Ransomes stories ?)

 

[30907]

Swallows and Amazons is set in the S lakes. much of the description sounds like Windermere, but with bits of Coniston Water thrown in. Its set between the 2 world wars.

One of the characters was the great aunt. We know she lived in Harrogate, and travelled to the lakes by train.

She says she prefers to travel from the station at the foot of the lake. i take that to mean lakeside Startion. But that line went to Ulverston, quite the wrong way.

So how would you travel to and from Lake Windermere to Harrogate st that time?

Carnforth -Skipton - Ilkley - Otley - Harrogate

Remember, she was an elderly lady. travelling alone with a large trunk.

If the Blacketts' Great Aunt (somehow, capitals seems appropriate!) says "the station at the foot of the lake" she means Lakeside (and brooks no argument...) - Coniston Water doesn't have a choice of stations in the same way.

The 1938 Bradshaw shows the connecting steamers (and even motors to Grasmere), so using that route to Beckfoot near the head of the lake would have been quite reasonable (a London passenger would more likely use Windermere).

Your suggestion (bolded) is perfectly feasible, as is the route via Leeds City (the Harrogate line being NER, only through London trains used the GN at Central).
Connnecting via Green Ayre and Castle would have been an added complication.

I am sure the large trunk would have gone in the van and been transferred by railway staff.

BTW while the local trains connected at Ulverston (cross-platform), there were also seasonal through trains, as Plumpton Jn was triangular (I've learnt something tonight); Bradshaw even has a Sunday excursion from Leeds using the connection at Carnforth F&M Junction.

 

[randyrippley]

don't forget that at that time trains ran from the Midland & Furness direct to the Furness line, using the cutoff to the north of Carnforth. There were express mill manager's commuter trains direct from the Barrow line to Leeds/Bradford, and also boat trains.
Quickest feasible route would be Harrogate-Leeds (change) - Ulverston (change) - Lakeside (change to boat) -Bowness / Ambleside
The Ulverston change would be either cross-platform (westbound) or same-platform (eastbound)

Going via Lancaster would be unlikely as that would have required changes at Lancaster Green Ayre and Lancaster Castle, and then a stopping train to Ulverston

Don't forget that Leeds - Morecambe trains were only routed via Carnforth after Wennington-Green Ayre closed, so changing at Carnforth probably wasn't an option

 

[Ken H]

If the Blacketts' Great Aunt (somehow, capitals seems appropriate!) says "the station at the foot of the lake" she means Lakeside (and brooks no argument...) - Coniston Water doesn't have a choice of stations in the same way.

The 1938 Bradshaw shows the connecting steamers (and even motors to Grasmere), so using that route to Beckfoot near the head of the lake would have been quite reasonable (a London passenger would more likely use Windermere).

Your suggestion (bolded) is perfectly feasible, as is the route via Leeds City (the Harrogate line being NER, only through London trains used the GN at Central).
Connnecting via Green Ayre and Castle would have been an added complication.

I am sure the large trunk would have gone in the van and been transferred by railway staff.

BTW while the local trains connected at Ulverston (cross-platform), there were also seasonal through trains, as Plumpton Jn was triangular (I've learnt something tonight); Bradshaw even has a Sunday excursion from Leeds using the connection at Carnforth F&M Junction.

Captain Flint would take her in the launch...

 

[30907]

Captain Flint would take her in the launch...

Are he and the GA known to each other? Genuine question, I can't remember.

 

[philjo]

The setting is partly fictitious. Rio is based on Bowness but some of the other locations in the books are in the Coniston area - I think the island that became Wildcat island is on Coniston Water. Kanchenjunga is the Old Man of Coniston.
So either Coniston or Lakeside or Windermere could have been used in the book setting.

 

[Calthrop]

Assuming (despite Philjo's post above) that the GA's station of choice was Windermere (Lakeside): she'd have been in bother subsequently to 26 / 9 / 1938, from which date regular passenger services on the Ulverston -- Lakeside branch were withdrawn (summer specials continued for a long time). With her being -- to put it as kindly as possible -- a somewhat autocratic lady; one envisages her writing in response to the closure, a scathing letter to the Chairman of the LMSR.

Though of course, shortly after the above date, for a number of years sterner stuff than pleasant holidays in the Lakes came to be on the national agenda -- though one of the above posts mentions wartime travel... one figures that in a realistic scenario: by the time war came, at any rate the older ones of the kids, would be of an age to take part in some capacity. Though it's a very long time since I read the books, or some of them -- I was never an avid fan. Do the youthful characters age naturally through the series -- or is it like the "Just William" books, where the anti-hero and his chums and family stay at the same age for decades? Actually, does real stuff affect "Swallows-and-Amazons-World"; or is it a blissful never-never-land untouched by miserable things like wars and railway closures?

 

[philjo]

From memory, the GA first appeared in Swallowdale which was first published in 1931.

 

[Taunton]

Ransome wrote that all the places were based on real ones, but were mixed up in a fictionalised arrangement. The same is commonly true of characters in novels often being based on those known to the author (aspects of Captain Flint based on Ransome himself). Ransome came from Manchester, spent much time in the Lake District, and would be very familiar with 1930s rail routes between the two. Great Aunt Maria would likely be based on someone he knew as well, but attributing her home to Harrogate sets a certain style (a real down-to-earth Yorkshireman from Barnsley once said to me " 'arrogate's not in Yorkshire, it's in Surrey).

Arthur Conan Doyle did the same thing in Sherlock Holmes, notably that in the many rail journeys Holmes takes he always sets off from the wrong London terminus for where he is going to. Now Doyle was no mean railway enthusiast, he actually wrote several separate stories specifically about railways, and doubtless got a bit of a buzz from deliberately mixing up the departure points, which if you know the locale well all adds to the mystery.

Reverting to reality, I see in a 1939 there was on Summer Saturdays an 0840 from Harrogate, via Cross Gates so into Leeds City station, connecting into the 0934 Leeds to Barrow, attaching a portion from Bradford at Shipley, running nonstop from Skipton to Carnforth, Ulverston arrive 1227, 1302 departure to Lakeside arrive 1327. Shall we guess a Midland Compound on the Leeds to Barrow train.

 

[Calthrop]

Reverting to reality, I see in a 1939 there was on Summer Saturdays an 0840 from Harrogate, via Cross Gates so into Leeds City station, connecting into the 0934 Leeds to Barrow, attaching a portion from Bradford at Shipley, running nonstop from Skipton to Carnforth, Ulverston arrive 1227, 1302 departure to Lakeside arrive 1327. Shall we guess a Midland Compound on the Leeds to Barrow train.

Not casting doubt here -- just very curious and interested. In my post a little way above, I mentioned perceived closure to passengers w.e.f. 26 / 9 / 38, of the Ulverston -- Lakeside branch. You give here, a passenger working on this branch in 1939. Would this have been a summer Saturdays as you say -- thus "special" -- job (we're told that summer specials continued past '38); or could it be that for once, the authors of Passengers No More -- my source for the 1938 withdrawal -- have got it wrong? (I was amazed at first seeing this item, in PNM -- had had it in my head, that regular services on the Lakeside branch had carried on for a lot longer.)

 

[mailbyrail]

Michael Quirk says in his Chronology that Lakeside was reduced to summer only from 26 Sept 1938, summer service 1941 one train each way alternate Sundays. Last train 31 Aug 1941, reopen Summer only 3 June 1946 closed 6 Sept 1965

 

[randyrippley]

.....................Reverting to reality, I see in a 1939 there was on Summer Saturdays an 0840 from Harrogate, via Cross Gates so into Leeds City station, connecting into the 0934 Leeds to Barrow, attaching a portion from Bradford at Shipley, running nonstop from Skipton to Carnforth, Ulverston arrive 1227, 1302 departure to Lakeside arrive 1327. Shall we guess a Midland Compound on the Leeds to Barrow train.

If it stopped at Carnforth, that would have meant a reversal - presumably in the now disused "midland bay" so a loco change there would seem likely

 

[Taunton]

Not casting doubt here -- just very curious and interested. In my post a little way above, I mentioned perceived closure to passengers w.e.f. 26 / 9 / 38, of the Ulverston -- Lakeside branch. You give here, a passenger working on this branch in 1939.

Summer 1939 LMS timetable

There's a whole web article here about Ransome and railways; he was possibly as much of an enthusiast as Arthur Conan Doyle was

https://www.allthingsransome.net/literary/arrailways/index.html

 

[341o2]

Are he and the GA known to each other? Genuine question, I can't remember.

They were related, actually he was James Turner or Uncle Jim

 

[Ken H]

Are he and the GA known to each other? Genuine question, I can't remember.

GA was aunt to Mrs Blackett (Nancy and Peggys mum) and Capn Flint. We never heard what happened to Mr Blackett.
Mrs blackett and Capn Flint were brother and sister. Captain Flint was Jim Turner and the GA was Miss Turner.

 

[duffield]

Do the youthful characters age naturally through the series...

Yes, they do seem to pretty much; one particular notable progression you see is Roger being allowed to do more advanced/dangerous stuff with less supervision. And towards the end I think there are references to John going into the Navy 'soon'.

 

[Ken H]

Assuming (despite Philjo's post above) that the GA's station of choice was Windermere (Lakeside): she'd have been in bother subsequently to 26 / 9 / 1938, from which date regular passenger services on the Ulverston -- Lakeside branch were withdrawn (summer specials continued for a long time). With her being -- to put it as kindly as possible -- a somewhat autocratic lady; one envisages her writing in response to the closure, a scathing letter to the Chairman of the LMSR.

Though of course, shortly after the above date, for a number of years sterner stuff than pleasant holidays in the Lakes came to be on the national agenda -- though one of the above posts mentions wartime travel... one figures that in a realistic scenario: by the time war came, at any rate the older ones of the kids, would be of an age to take part in some capacity. Though it's a very long time since I read the books, or some of them -- I was never an avid fan. Do the youthful characters age naturally through the series -- or is it like the "Just William" books, where the anti-hero and his chums and family stay at the same age for decades? Actually, does real stuff affect "Swallows-and-Amazons-World"; or is it a blissful never-never-land untouched by miserable things like wars and railway closures?

I think they aged. Bridget was a baby in Swallows and Amazons but was 6 or 7 in later books. In the Picts and the Martyrs, Nancy was considered old enough to be home alone when Mrs Blackett went away so she must have been middle-late teens.

The Swallows dad was in the Navy and in Secret Water, he could not go with them as he had orders from the royal navy which involved being in London. One wonders if he was engaged in secret preparations for a war that many saw coming.

(I had a big operation last summer, and as I recovered, i lay in bed and red the whole set again. I just needed simple escapism. But I loved the books as a kid. you can download them all for free here https://www.fadedpage.com/csearch.php?author=Ransome, Arthur )

 

[Calthrop]

Summer 1939 LMS timetableView attachment 62429

Thanks. It would seem re Messrs. Daniels and Dench, authors of Passengers No More -- on this one, they have at best over-simplified things.

There's a whole web article here about Ransome and railways; he was possibly as much of an enthusiast as Arthur Conan Doyle was

https://www.allthingsransome.net/literary/arrailways/index.html

Fascinating -- for sure, Ransome knew his railways very well. Didn't he spend much time in Russia / "former bits of Russia", in the late 1910s / early 20s? One could wish for some fiction from him about Russian railways -- still, mustn't be greedy.

We never heard what happened to Mr Blackett.

Being a bit morbid -- maybe, killed in World War I? (assuming that the time-line would allow him to beget Peggy before he "bought it")

I think they aged. Bridget was a baby in Swallows and Amazons but was 6 or 7 in later books. In the Picts and the Martyrs, Nancy was considered old enough to be home alone when Mrs Blackett went away so she must have been middle-late teens.

The Swallows dad was in the Navy and in Secret Water, he could not go with them as he had orders from the royal navy which involved being in London. One wonders if he was engaged in secret preparations for a war that many saw coming.

(I had a big operation last summer, and as I recovered, i lay in bed and red the whole set again. I just needed simple escapism. But I loved the books as a kid. you can download them all for free here https://www.fadedpage.com/csearch.php?author=Ransome, Arthur )

Thanks -- and to duffield. I had forgotten, even, that the Swallow paterfamilias was a Naval type. (Was acquainted not so long ago, with a chap who was a terrific Ransome / S & A enthusiast -- he was an officer in the Society of devotees of same. With my ignorance / forgetfulness re the subject, which am discovering -- he'd be ashamed to acknowledge me !)

 

[Bevan Price]

If it stopped at Carnforth, that would have meant a reversal - presumably in the now disused "midland bay" so a loco change there would seem likely

Almost certainly a loco change at Carnforth, and quite probably using one of the through platforms rather than a bay, if it was a longish train. Motive power probably involving ex-Midland 4-4-0s, but 4F 0-6-0s and other freight locos also appeared on Summer Saturdays. Stanier 5MT 4-6-0s were also available by the late 1930s. Alternatives might have included Fowler or Stanier 4MT 2-6-4 tanks, and "Crab" 2-6-0s.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I had forgotten, even, that the Swallow paterfamilias was a Naval type.

If I remember right he held the rank of Commander.

 

[Ken H]

If it stopped at Carnforth, that would have meant a reversal - presumably in the now disused "midland bay" so a loco change there would seem likely

could it not have run along the north curve towards Grange, then set back into a platform?

 

[AndrewE]

could it not have run along the north curve towards Grange, then set back into a platform?

I would guess more likely to have run into the platform head-on then be re-engined on the rear, or even just not called at Carnforth. We need a Bradshaw's from around that date...

 

[randyrippley]

I would guess more likely to have run into the platform head-on then be re-engined on the rear, or even just not called at Carnforth. We need a Bradshaw's from around that date...

As far as I'm aware the club trains would not have stopped, but this quote from Taunton suggests that some trains did

.........................Reverting to reality, I see in a 1939 there was on Summer Saturdays an 0840 from Harrogate, via Cross Gates so into Leeds City station, connecting into the 0934 Leeds to Barrow, attaching a portion from Bradford at Shipley, running nonstop from Skipton to Carnforth, Ulverston arrive 1227, 1302 departure to Lakeside arrive 1327. Shall we guess a Midland Compound on the Leeds to Barrow train.

 

[John Webb]

The book concerned is "The Picts and The Martyrs" and is set in 1932. In the chapter "Totally Disappeared" Nancy states of the Great Aunt "...she'd never go from that station anyway[ie Lakeside], because of all the changes....". There are further clues that the GA used Windermere from descriptions of the arrival of the car bringing her and taking her away.

Other Points: Bridget Walker's age, she starts off with her 2nd birthday in "Swallows and Amazons" (set in 1929) and consistently ages through the rest of the books.)
The Amazons' Father: Almost certainly a casualty of "The Great War", or possibly the flu outbreak which followed it. In "Swallowdale" (set 1930) they all climb "Kanchenjunga" and at the summit find a secreted box in a cairn which contains a note signed by the Amazons' mother, Jim Turner and Bob Blackett in 1901. Susan Walker askes who Bob Blackett was, and Nancy replies "He was father."

 

[30907]

Authors are allowed to be inconsistent! Presumably KenH's quote is from Swallowdale?

 

[John Webb]

Authors are allowed to be inconsistent! Presumably KenH's quote is from Swallowdale?

I think it's a reference to "The Picts and The Martyrs"; see my post (#26) above. In "Swallowdale" Nancy refers to being able to see the smoke of the train that's taking her [the GA] away if they hurry up Kanchenjunga. Given Ransome's geography of the Lake District that he uses, it is far more likely to be the Windermere line rather than Lakeside as "Kachenjunga" is at the N end of the lake.

 

[Ken H]

I think it's a reference to "The Picts and The Martyrs"; see my post (#26) above. In "Swallowdale" Nancy refers to being able to see the smoke of the train that's taking her [the GA] away if they hurry up Kanchenjunga. Given Ransome's geography of the Lake District that he uses, it is far more likely to be the Windermere line rather than Lakeside as "Kachenjunga" is at the N end of the lake.

Ransome plays fast and loose with geography. This map has high fells to the west of the lake, which Windermere doesnt have. But we know the lake is a composite of Windermere and Coniston
But could they see the smoke from a train from the mountain if the station was at the foot of the lake?

But if you are right and she uses Windermere, would she route Windermere, Oxenholme, Carnforth, Leeds, Harrogate? Or change Lancaster. People above have said there were not many carforth-leeds trains as most leeds morecambe trains went via Hornby and Lanc Green Ayre in those days.

(Why did they shut Wennington - Lanc Green Ayre -Morecambe rather than Wennington - Carnforth and the route to Morecambe via Bare Lane?)

Map is from Swallowdale

 

[chorleyjeff]

Reversal at Carnforth needed ? Otherwise miss out the Carnforth stop.