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Settle & Carlisle Line - Past, Present & Future

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Bletchleyite

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It's 88 miles by road from Preston to Carlisle in a coach, which shouldn't take more than two hours. Even given time for embarking and changing, better than three hours on a train.

A lot of people don't like coaches, either because they get travel-sick or for other reasons. Even more people don't like changing trains. Journey time isn't critical to everyone - if it was Chiltern and LNR would have no through passengers from Brum to London, and nobody would ever do anything other than fly from London to Scotland.
 
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cactustwirly

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EMT via Manton clearly would only appeal to track bashers (it's not especially scenic), whereas the scenic S&C appeals to a far wider set of people.

The scenery is actually pretty, with the rolling Northamptonshire hills.
At the end of the day, a long direct train is more preferable than a quicker RRB IMO
 

30907

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...and we've only had one half-hearted attempt at a limited-stop Leeds-Glasgow through service in the mid-2000s (does anyone know how these loaded?)...
From limited experience, not very well - 2 cars always comfortably enough.
 

randyrippley

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It's 88 miles by road from Preston to Carlisle in a coach, which shouldn't take more than two hours. Even given time for embarking and changing, better than three hours on a train. The S and C has many merits, but a diversionary route isn't one of them.
you can add at least 30 minutes at each end to negotiate the traffic between station and motorway, so three hours at least
 

30907

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you can add at least 30 minutes at each end to negotiate the traffic between station and motorway, so three hours at least
Buses this weekend are timetabled in 2hr 55m, complete with 3 stops requiring considerable diversions off the M6. Googlemaps tells me those cost 40mins in a car, so 2hr 15 should be do-able.
 

randyrippley

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Buses this weekend are timetabled in 2hr 55m, complete with 3 stops requiring considerable diversions off the M6. Googlemaps tells me those cost 40mins in a car, so 2hr 15 should be do-able.


I suspect that 2:55 is for a direct Preston-Carlisle routing, they usually have some buses doing that with others routed via the intermediate towns.
The diversion via Lancaster will use up most of your 40 minutes, the Oxenholme diversion another 30. Penrith is going to be another 20 at least
 

Glenn1969

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There are one stop at Penrith buses taking 2.15 and 3 stop TP buses taking 3.05 according to RTT tonight. Carlisle to Glasgow is 1.55 non stop
 

johnnychips

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you can add at least 30 minutes at each end to negotiate the traffic between station and motorway, so three hours at least
No, I did ‘real time’ Google Maps from Preston Station to Carlisle Station and it came out as 1h 30m for a car, so two hours is doable. Of course if you divert to Lancaster, Oxenholme and Penrith it will take much longer. However,
I would expect direct coaches for through passengers.
 

ChiefPlanner

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EMT via Manton clearly would only appeal to track bashers (it's not especially scenic), whereas the scenic S&C appeals to a far wider set of people.

Harringworth Viaduct has some afficionados , of course - but then you can enjoy the S+C on the normal , booked , subsidised train service.....(with guides and a decent trolley service)
 

chorleyjeff

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Half an hour from Preston railway station to M6 ( assume Broughton not Tickled Trout). Much less at weekend and BHs when RRBs run.
Eighty miles of motorway at 60mph is not a two hour journey.
Anyhow the journey has been done many times so factual info. Is available from travellers.
 

Chester1

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It's 3 hours 11 minutes from Preston to Carlisle on the Dales Rail Summer Sunday service. That makes 18 intermediate stops. Once factoring in padding to arrive in Carlisle to transfer everyone back onto a train there won't be much difference in journey time between Preston and Glasgow via S&C diversion or a coach. Assuming the S&C diversion would be given complete priority over normal services a Preston-Glasgow time of 3 hours 45 minutes could be possible. With 45 minutes recovery time a hourly service by double Voyagers would require 18 out of 20 units. It's a trade off between cost and regular services over maintaining rail services between Scotland and the North West.
 

matacaster

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What is the situation in respect of paths on the Northern WCML?
Whilst there are benefits in routing nearly all freight (partly because of loading gauge) and most passenger services ia the WCML, this is only true up to a point. That point is where the service deteriorates due to the number, there are insufficient paths for new services or the services are so concentrated that, say, a natural disaster like a viaduct collapsing means there is no viable alternative. A two-hourly service from say Leeds or Nottingham via S&C to Glasgow and a similar service from Manchester with one stop at Carlisle using 185's would appear to be worth a trial, particularly as there will be plenty of 185's available.

I've often wondered if electrification should have continued from Skipton to Hellifield using (extended bay platforms). Of course, Hellifield is far too small to warrant investment in infrastructure to facilitate an electric service on present population and passenger numbers, but it could become part of the Leeds commuter belt and perhaps a frequent electrified link would cause that development, just like with the Southern railway did for London commuters. Thoughts?
 

30907

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I suspect that 2:55 is for a direct Preston-Carlisle routing, they usually have some buses doing that with others routed via the intermediate towns.
The diversion via Lancaster will use up most of your 40 minutes, the Oxenholme diversion another 30. Penrith is going to be another 20 at least
Could I suggest a look at the sources I referred to before posting?
 

Ken H

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It's 88 miles by road from Preston to Carlisle in a coach, which shouldn't take more than two hours. Even given time for embarking and changing, better than three hours on a train. The S and C has many merits, but a diversionary route isn't one of them.
then why did inter-city do cl47 drags preston- carlisle in the 1980's?
 

30907

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then why did inter-city do cl47 drags preston- carlisle in the 1980's?

There were far fewer trains involved, they could be dragged by anything with air brakes and ETH, the railway was less fragmented, and locos and crews were easier to source.
Those may not be sufficient reason for abandoning the practice, but they are relevant factors.
 

tbtc

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Even if we must have a regular service from Leeds to Glasgow via Carlisle, I'm not sure that the S&C is the best way to do it.

Running via Bentham permits more fast running on the WCML. Running via Burnley permits even more fast running on the WCML (with the added bonus of service Bradford/ Halifax/ Burnley/ Blackburn/ Preston/ Lancaster).

You could probably get a direct Leeds - Carlisle - Glasgow journey time matching the four hour duration of the XC service if you run via Huddersfield/ Manchester/ Bolton/ Preston/ Lancaster (and serving a lot more intermediate population than Settle/ Appleby!)

Through passenger usage in the past was clealy limited, but rail travel numbers have shot up since 2000, and we've only had one half-hearted attempt at a limited-stop Leeds-Glasgow through service in the mid-2000s (does anyone know how these loaded?) before that was nixed.

Sorry for repeating myself, but we do have direct Leeds - Glasgow services, every couple of hours.

They seem to be an inconvenient truth for a few people of this thread who'd like to pretend that the S&C is the only possible way of getting between the cities.

If the argument is that these services are too busy (and that's a fair point!) then why don't we throw resources at the XC services via York/ Newcastle/ Edinburgh? These are the ones that are so busy but people on here seem contented to do nothing about them whilst throwing resources at speculative "built it and they might come" services through the middle of nowhere (rather than increasing the number of seats on a busy service that serves large cities).

Given how busy the XC services are, even if you run a Leeds - Carlisle - Glasgow service every hour, it will only take a fraction of those passengers away from the current Voyager route.

If operators promoted diversions over the S&C they would get extra passengers booking for a scenic day out

In theory but there's then be complaints about the lack of Advance tickets for a tenner and complaints that the windows on the 390s weren't big enough to appreciate Ribblehead... and why aren't the trains a traditional blue/grey livery...

At the end of the day, a long direct train is more preferable than a quicker RRB IMO

Many would agree.

I'm sure most on here would agree, and probably a lot of regular members of the public would say they were happy on a longer train ride, but is there any evidence of actual passenger behaviour (e.g. being prepared to sit on a longer train when a coach is scheduled to get there an hour earlier)? I can see people saying they are happy to sit on a longer train in theory but people say a lot of nice things when completing opinion polls (e.g. most people say that they are happy to pay more tax then vote for a political party that promises to cut taxes).

I've often wondered if electrification should have continued from Skipton to Hellifield using (extended bay platforms). Of course, Hellifield is far too small to warrant investment in infrastructure to facilitate an electric service on present population and passenger numbers, but it could become part of the Leeds commuter belt and perhaps a frequent electrified link would cause that development, just like with the Southern railway did for London commuters. Thoughts?

I've suggested, in the past, something simple/basic like a 153 shuttling from Skipton to Settle to provide regular connections with the Leeds/Bradford EMUs (although the track-work means you'd have to go much further north for the next points).

I've similarly suggested using a DMU to do a Skipton - Hellifield - Clitheroe service (connecting with the Blackburn/Manchester trains) but the general response was along the lines of not being interested in practical/cheap improvements (which would give people simple connections etc) because the focus should be on daydreaming about going back to the glory days of Thames Clyde Expresses and all that

(* - there was also an issue with the current points at Hellifield requiring work on them to permit reversals IIRC)
 

Ken H

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...I'm sure most on here would agree, and probably a lot of regular members of the public would say they were happy on a longer train ride, but is there any evidence of actual passenger behaviour (e.g. being prepared to sit on a longer train when a coach is scheduled to get there an hour earlier)? I can see people saying they are happy to sit on a longer train in theory but people say a lot of nice things when completing opinion polls (e.g. most people say that they are happy to pay more tax then vote for a political party that promises to cut taxes).

...

I was speaking to someone yesterday aghast that most of her Manchester-Carlisle journey today would be on a bus. She actually was considering travelling via her native Newcastle until I told her of the direct Leeds-Carlisle service.

We hear comics joke about replacement buses. I think people regard them as a cheat. They paid for a train ticket, they dont expect a bus. If they wanted a bus they would have booked with Megabus.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sure most on here would agree, and probably a lot of regular members of the public would say they were happy on a longer train ride, but is there any evidence of actual passenger behaviour (e.g. being prepared to sit on a longer train when a coach is scheduled to get there an hour earlier)? I can see people saying they are happy to sit on a longer train in theory but people say a lot of nice things when completing opinion polls (e.g. most people say that they are happy to pay more tax then vote for a political party that promises to cut taxes).

I think there's reasonable evidence - and it doesn't even involve a bus - that quite a lot of people from MKC will use the direct VT to Scotland via Birmingham (xx13) rather than the following xx40 changing at Crewe, despite the fact that these usually show the same Advance fares. OK, that's 28 minutes rather than an hour, but I'm sure there are plenty of examples where people will choose either cheaper or to avoid changes if possible, not necessarily quickest.
 

Class 170101

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I'm sure most on here would agree, and probably a lot of regular members of the public would say they were happy on a longer train ride, but is there any evidence of actual passenger behaviour (e.g. being prepared to sit on a longer train when a coach is scheduled to get there an hour earlier)? I can see people saying they are happy to sit on a longer train in theory but people say a lot of nice things when completing opinion polls (e.g. most people say that they are happy to pay more tax then vote for a political party that promises to cut taxes).

Passenger Focus did research on this very topic and people preferred the longer train journey than the Rail Replacement Road service.
 

Ken H

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Passenger Focus did research on this very topic and people preferred the longer train journey than the Rail Replacement Road service.
i am biased. i actually get travel sick on buses. I avoid them where possible. 2 hours on one from penrith to carlisle - just no.
 

northrob

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i am biased. i actually get travel sick on buses. I avoid them where possible. 2 hours on one from penrith to carlisle - just no.
Two hours? I think you might be over-exaggerating. The 104 bus operated by Stagecoach between the two places takes less than half that.
 

Ken H

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Two hours? I think you might be over-exaggerating. The 104 bus operated by Stagecoach between the two places takes less than half that.
oops. meant Preston - carlisle. I think thats a replacement bus today
Sorry 'bout that
 

MadCommuter

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I am travelling from Motherwell to Leeds later this month. When booking a few weeks ago, my priority was cost and no bus. Some trains couldn't be confirmed no cheap fare available from Settle (my usual route, regardless of journey time) and I found it quite difficult to make a choice. I've ended up going via Edinburgh and Newcastle on Cross Country on a direct train in both directions.

When my family visit from down south, they use the service via Birmingham on grounds of cost and direct train.

Maybe it's a family thing.
 

Grumpy

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Even if we must have a regular service from Leeds to Glasgow via Carlisle, I'm not sure that the S&C is the best way to do it.
Putting aside whether we “Must” have a through Leeds-Glasgow service, running via the S&C would seem to be the best option. Whilst I can see the merits of running via the Calder Valley and population centres served, it’s a slow journey to Preston, and even with fast running on the WCML you would be looking at an end to end journey time of around 4h 20m. The option of running via Bentham, presumably reversing at Lancaster would still be around 3h 50m. Quicker but with no intermediate traffic potential, a longer distance than the S&C, and like the Calder Valley suggestion, using taking up WCML paths. Running via the S&C would take 3h30-3h40m for something like a 158, with no money spent on track enhancements, but by cutting out stops at most of the small stations.

Looking at the present options then a glance at the journey planner shows 4 possibilities leaving Leeds between 06.49 and 0807. These take on average 4h14m. The first 3 require changes. The first service not requiring a change doesn’t arrive in Glasgow till after noon-which is of limited use as a business service. So a direct service via the S&C could offer an improvement of approx. 40 minutes, roughly 20%, with no need to change. Which would seem to be a significant improvement on the present offering.

So why do some on here think there is commercial potential? As stated upthread there is no great difference between the population numbers of West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester. By cross-linking Leeds-Glasgow and Leeds-Nottingham services you add South Yorkshire and beyond into the market for no extra operational cost.

TPE are to introduce a Liverpool-Glasgow service. How can this be more remunerative than a service from Leeds(/Sheffield/Nottingham)? It is argued on here that Leeds passengers can go the long way round and/or change trains-but surely the same can be argued re Manchester and Liverpool direct trains not being necessary as passengers could change into Virgin services at Preston. Manchester will soon have another service to Edinburgh when TPE extends the Newcastle trains-nobody seems to think that this would justify withdrawing the Edinburgh via Carlisle service as now being a duplication.
 

yorksrob

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For me, the day to day argument is won by the numbers of people on the trains these days who are already making through journeys between West Yorkshire and Carlisle. The route is clearly at a frequency that makes it attractive to a decent amount of longer distance traffic.

In terms of diversions, the Southern has recently run some diversions between London and Brighton via a very lengthy diversion through Littlehampton. Is there any evidence that these were underused or unpopular ?
 

Roose

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For me, the day to day argument is won by the numbers of people on the trains these days who are already making through journeys between West Yorkshire and Carlisle.
What sort of numbers, please? Source?
 

yorksrob

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What sort of numbers, please? Source?

The numbers and source are purely anecdotal - from the numbers I encounter travelling through Appleby.

With the exception of of the months when the line North of Appleby was closed, I've always had to search for a seat.
 

deltic08

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Not repitition at all - just what was needed, actually. Except - while I could accept the details for 65-66 when I first used the line, it doesn't fit my memory of 71. And I know it was 71, so that gives me a problem!



I do seem to remember the 60 mph at Settle Jcn - and I'm pretty sure the 70 mph curve at Crosby Garrett (before and over Smardale Viaduct?) was the one my driver took at nearer 80 mph in 1971.



This is the bit that flummoxes me, as I was sure it was 80 in 1971. I could accept my memory had got it wrong and it was 70 mph, but I can't believe we crawled over the route at 60 mph - or were supposed to. Oh dear, perhaps the grey matter is worse than I thought ....



My paper round money would not extend to lunch in a BR Mk 1 in 1965, sadly.
I had a gap between 1962 when using the overnight Brum-Glasgows/Edinburghs regularly that were routed this way as Shap overnight was rammed, and 1970 when I came to Leeds med school and still visited relatives in Workington. The overnights still ran fast downhill if they were late but in a log timed in 1971 I recorded class 40 diesel 244 on a morning Leeds-Glasgow running down Mallerstang to Appleby at speeds between 83 and 87mph.

This was curtailed in about 1979 to long sections of 20mph on the same stretch because of rotten wooden sleepers and loose chairs. Soon after it was announced that Ribblehead viaduct was falling down and the line was to close. BR did replace every 5th sleeper to stop gauge spreading but the speed did not improve to 1971 speed or service levels until the line was reprieved in 1989.
 

deltic08

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The trouble with the S&C as a diversionary route is that it can only shoulder a small proportion of the load. It is a lot longer and a lot slower than the WCML direct so you ‘run out of trains to divert’ quite quickly. This is very different to (say) running via Northampton or Kidsrove-Alsager. It is also not commercially reasonable to maintain route knowledge in normal operation by re-routeing the odd first or last train. There are very few crews from any passenger or freight operator who could be hired in as conductors for the whole diversion. The route has limited spare capacity given that there are a number of single line pinch points, no realistic overtaking facilities at any point and a mix of normal passenger and freight services with very different characteristics to (ideally) non-stop diversions.
With typically three passenger trains per hour via Shap, including Transpennine, only some passengers are still going to get a through train and even if others change to avoid coaches via the M6 there are still hassles with luggage, loss of seat reservations, waiting for next train for up to an hour and so forth.
The way that Schedule 4 works is to model ‘extended journey time’ and ‘cancellations’ (trains not serving particular Monitoring Points). Even with a modest number of trains diverted the shortfall on the normal timetable is still massive and doesn’t really ‘save’ very much, even before you factor the very real costs in terms of route knowledge, locomotives for drags, additional shifts at Preston and Carlisle, still having to run coaches for Lancaster, Oxenholme and Penrith and what have you.
‘Nice idea, BUT...’
A ridiculous statement that there are a number of pinch points. Where are they other than the one at Ribblehead?

There is virtually no freight now to hinder diversions. Is West Coast freight diverted when the line north of Preston is closed?

The fact is that the S&C is there thanks to the efforts of 25, 000 objectors and needs to be used as much as possible to keep it there.
 
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