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More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

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driver_m

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The limited clearance sign is the cherry on the cake there.

Again, they certainly look like all those “Facebook generation,” chavs who are famous for their love of old steam locomotives...::


Hopefully this is it now. They’ve had enough warnings. Enough is enough. They’re museum pieces, pains me to say it, but get them on preserved lines or museums until people can learn to respect our place of work.
 
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ainsworth74

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What other approach will work then? Ask nicely and stand behind the fence?
Hide the timings?
Ban all publicity?

None of it has worked...

Have those last two even been tried yet? As has been linked already it was plastered all over the local media when it was going to be running through. I can recall similar sorts of things in my own local media in the past when it visited the area.

That being said, personally, I do think it's time to very seriously consider whether or not Flying Scotsman can continue to be used on the mainline. The first few times it happened I chalked it up to it being because it'd been in a shed for so long and it would die down. Only its back for a few years now and, er, it isn't. Personally I don't think we need to go so far as to ban mainline steam in general but I'm not sure it's tenable to continue running Flying Scotsman.
 

theking

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About time these relics are taken off the main lines and confined to museums and the history books.

If not stick it in the middle of a few freight wagons don't let it run under it's own steam.

What with 16 year olds coming and telling us about climate change it's a quick way to reduce emissions
 

Mag_seven

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I like to see Network Rail issue a final warning - any more instances of trespass at the next run of "Flying Scotsman" then that's it - it's banned form main line metals for good. Hopefully that might concentrate some minds.
 

433N

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I knew exactly the kind of response I’d get. ‘Bonkers’ ‘simple minded’.

To be fair, you knew what response you would get which is why you posted something inflammatory without explaining the logic of why 'we' spotters were collectively responsible for this (and still haven't explained that logic). In fact, your logic would dictate that since these trespassers are members of the public like you, you are responsible for their actions. I know you will see this as me defending them, but you would be completely wrong - if you can countenance such a thought.

FWIW, I happen to agree with alot of what you say but you aren't going to persuade many people to your point of view with how you are saying it. And please remember that alot of 'us' spotters work in places that people don't have complete respect for either.
 

duffield

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It does seem to be mostly FS that has 'issues'. It would be a shame to ban mainline steam purely due to FS. Is there any evidence that non-FS steam causes any significant and persistent trespass issues?

Also, I think it would make some of the more well-off 'enthusiasts' (who actually have the money to pay such a fine) think twice if they faced (say) a £10,000 fine or similar. A few well-publicised such cases might have some effect.

Banning all steam on the mainline would seem to me a bit like the calls for banning all professional football during the worst times of hooliganism, where strict measures against the worst offenders were actually pretty effective (e.g. banned from all games for 5 years/life). How about some sort of sentence where you get a stiff fine for one instance of trespass but 90% of it is suspended unless you're caught again? E.g. £1000 fine with £9000 suspended? Surely that would be a big deterrent without immediately bankrupting people?

What do people think? Would this be effective? Just trying to throw some ideas out there without going to the 'ban all railtours' extreme.
 

underbank

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I like to see Network Rail issue a final warning - any more instances of trespass at the next run of "Flying Scotsman" then that's it - it's banned form main line metals for good. Hopefully that might concentrate some minds.

No, because the chavs don't have the sense to think that way. They'll see a post on twitter or facebook that a steam train is on it's way and they'll go and get their selfies regardless.
 

driver_m

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To be fair, you knew what response you would get which is why you posted something inflammatory without explaining the logic of why 'we' spotters were collectively responsible for this (and still haven't explained that logic). In fact, your logic would dictate that since these trespassers are members of the public like you, you are responsible for their actions. I know you will see this as me defending them, but you would be completely wrong - if you can countenance such a thought.

FWIW, I happen to agree with alot of what you say but you aren't going to persuade many people to your point of view with how you are saying it. And please remember that alot of 'us' spotters work in places that people don't have complete respect for either.

I’m not the one putting the public at risk am I though? I’m the one who has to deal with the outcome of said stupid behaviour. I never claimed my logic is perfect either, but there isn’t a perfect answer, so the next best option is to either ban it or ban the FS in particular. Because as a whole, the public CANNOT be trusted not to trespass, as has been proven time and time again. I don’t really care TBH about changing your view or others of a similar view because it’s already too late. I’ve had to deal regularly with trespass, idiocy on platforms and watched spotter turn on spotter over where to stand. I know when a steam train is knocking about without even have to look on some website to find out, because the lineside has plenty around and platforms are hammered compared to normal. It’s the same all the time when one is knocking about. As staff, we’ve had enough, it isn’t dying down and before long we are going to be dealing with a fatality. Defend that.
 

Ianno87

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If you advertise the station stops it isn't rocket science to guess whether it may use a particular route.

All the open data does is reduce the amount of time people have to stay out to see the train pass - if it was 'secret' people would still go out to see it.

No the OpenData tells people that 'Flying Scotsman will be the next train', so they incorrectly infer it to be 'safe' to cross the fence line, because it will 'only be for a few minutes'.

Giving people more vague/imprecise information would make them less likely to take such risks.
 

underbank

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It does seem to be mostly FS that has 'issues'.

Because the media, particularly local newspaper websites whip up the interest. Someone notices FS is on a tour, and not only does it get published on their website/facebook page, it's "copied and pasted" to all other local newspaper websites along the route as many local rags are now owned by the same group, so "copy and paste" is common and saves local staff having to work to find their own stories.

It's why there aren't the same problems when FS is on the main line light engine or ECS - it's not newsworthy so doesn't whip up the facebook/twitter chavs.

The local newspaper "journalists" don't bother with other steam main line tours, so Joe Public doesn't get to know about them.
 

DanDaDriver

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No, because the chavs don't have the sense to think that way. They'll see a post on twitter or facebook that a steam train is on it's way and they'll go and get their selfies regardless.

But it’s not chavs taking selfies is it?

These are people with high end camera equipment desperate for that shot.
 

bramling

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I suppose you deserve credit for somehow managing to get Muslims and terrorists into a thread about Flying Scotsman. It amazes me how you manage it. But no, it bears no similarity at all.

Anyone can see that it's beyond a joke now and it isn't just Flying Scotsman, it happens any time one of these relics get let out on to the network. Prosecution is no deterrent for these people, their braindead behaviour is documented everywhere with a variety of close calls, they seem eager to risk their life for the perfect shot. You cannot change that mindset with a monetary penalty and be honest here, nobody is going to throw them in jail for this.

Someone upthread suggesting making it more common. Nonsense. Eliminate it altogether. Restrict them to the heritage railway where they can chuff around as much as they want in a their own controlled (that makes me chuckle as well!) environment.

I agree it appears to be getting beyond a joke, some of the footage is in all honesty incredulous, and even worse is that some people are clearly so brazen about it, not even attempting to be discreet.

However what I object to is the idea that it's somehow a collective responsibility to right this, and the apparent gloating we see from some at the thought that the FS, or steam altogether, might be banned. People do stupid things, this is a fact of life. It's also almost certainly a fact that the people doing this remain very much the minority, albeit one causing a disproportionate amount of trouble. There's other ways of attempting to deal with this problem besides simply removing all steam.
 

underbank

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I do think it's time to very seriously consider whether or not Flying Scotsman can continue to be used on the mainline.

Before then, we need proper analysis of the factors surrounding all the instances when FS has been on main line, i.e. how many movements have had problems compared with how many without, then look at which had social media publicity and which didn't. If there were problems every single time FS was on the main line, then fair enough, perhaps a ban is the answer, and I'm no fan of the flying moneypit myself so it wouldn't bother me, but I think we need any response to be based on logic and facts, not knee jerk reaction.
 

433N

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It does seem to be mostly FS that has 'issues'. It would be a shame to ban mainline steam purely due to FS. Is there any evidence that non-FS steam causes any significant and persistent trespass issues?

Well, I'm not so sure it's just the FS. Last summer at Carlisle, they had taken to putting up barriers to curb people's behaviour around the station on days when the Dalesman was running and talking to a member of staff, they explained that they could now be held personally responsible if someone is hurt. So, it is becoming a bit of a nightmare generally (and it had to be said that there was still errant behaviour in spite of the barriers).

Not sure if the barriers are there this year. I don't get much of an inclination to go places where people behave like plonkers or where I get treated like cattle.
 

30907

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Purely an observation - there was a period when timings for some services were NOT released to uksteam - not sure whether this was for Tornado or FS, but one or other. Both attract far greater crowds than average - I am not aware of any serious issues on the previous legs of this trip, though intriguingly some of the timings have disappeared fro the uksteam site.
 

PaxVobiscum

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Perhaps what is needed is a campaign to keep away and and forgo Flying Scotsman.

#FFS anyone? <(
 
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Well, I'm not so sure it's just the FS. Last summer at Carlisle, they had taken to putting up barriers to curb people's behaviour around the station on days when the Dalesman was running and talking to a member of staff, they explained that they could now be held personally responsible if someone is hurt. So, it is becoming a bit of a nightmare generally (and it had to be said that there was still errant behaviour in spite of the barriers).

Not sure if the barriers are there this year. I don't get much of an inclination to go places where people behave like plonkers or where I get treated like cattle.

If we removed the compensation culture that causes TOCs and NR to fear being sued by the families of scum who kill and maim themselves whilst on railway land and made it clear that the responsibility for death & injury rests purely with the trespasser, then it might stop the problem (or at least weed these people out of the gene pool before they have a chance to breed). The UK has a completely different approach to the railway than most other counties I've visited. France, Spain & Germany have mile on mile of unfenced railway. In the developing world, the railway is accepted as being in close proximity to persons and vice versa. In one recent TV show starring an erstwhile Tiswas presenter, a point was made about the fact that the main line ran between two rows of market stalls, with the stall owners and shoppers getting out of the way at the last minute. They were under no illusion that the train was going to carry on regardless.

Why so different in the UK?
 

Dr_Paul

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I must admit that a few people do get a bit above themselves at railway events. One incident especially springs to mind; I was at Horsted Keynes on the Bluebell Railway with my dad on a special day -- was it when a V2 was visiting? -- and there were a lot of photographers on the platform. We were careful not to obscure their view, but one of them loudly demanded that I remain silent when I said something to my dad as I was apparently ruining his video recording. It was his arrogant manner that struck me, like some feudal lord issuing instructions to one of his serfs. I imagine that it's this sense of self-entitlement that makes some people feel that they have the right to disobey sensible safety regulations and go off wandering along the trackside.
 

Timrud

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I think its time to ban it from the mainline. Put it in the rail museum, or some sidings where it can trundle up and down.
 

Ken H

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Its not just on the railway there is a problem

There are idiots climbing over the railway bounday, parking like idiots, and even racing the trains.

I used to live backing onto the railway. people used to block my entry and walk though the private land. Got well umpty when I told them to sling their hook. And said I didnt appreciate them climbing over the boundary wall, as it is there to stop kids straying onto the line.
 
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Because God forbid anyone who wasn’t a true enthusiast would want to take anything other than the same 3/4 on weirdly HDR’d shot of the same loco that’s been photographed a billion times....... ;)

That's not what I'm saying. The problem is that they're oblivious to the fact that they've just strolled in front of a dozen people all lining their shot up (HDR is so 2017). There are also idiots who plonk themselves in the wrong places with tripods and sound recording gear. I think what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of idiots.

The only way to prevent this is to either stop running FS or put 8ft high grey palisade fencing along all railway lines in Britain. I'd accept the former, but not the latter.

Just noticed your smiley. HDR is boring.
 

Cowley

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This is unacceptable behaviour. There is no other description for it. If anyone knows these fools. Give their names in to BTP. Though hopefully it has probably already been done by now. View attachment 62556
How is it not possible to prosecute these two for a start?
Could there even be an easier way to convict than this evidence?
Has anyone ever actually been prosecuted for this kind of behaviour over the last few years does anyone know?
 

DarloRich

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What is "the truth"?

That it is the rail enthusiast/spotter that is casuing lots of the problems in these situations. If we see such behaviour we have to take a stand. Turning a blind eye is endorsing such behaviour.


Btw See post #297 : hardly Facebook selfie types ( and there are several others reported)
 

LowLevel

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If we removed the compensation culture that causes TOCs and NR to fear being sued by the families of scum who kill and maim themselves whilst on railway land and made it clear that the responsibility for death & injury rests purely with the trespasser, then it might stop the problem (or at least weed these people out of the gene pool before they have a chance to breed). The UK has a completely different approach to the railway than most other counties I've visited. France, Spain & Germany have mile on mile of unfenced railway. In the developing world, the railway is accepted as being in close proximity to persons and vice versa. In one recent TV show starring an erstwhile Tiswas presenter, a point was made about the fact that the main line ran between two rows of market stalls, with the stall owners and shoppers getting out of the way at the last minute. They were under no illusion that the train was going to carry on regardless.

Why so different in the UK?

1) Speaking as a traincrew member I'm not interested in witnessing a body sustain warzone style injuries just as a point scoring and educational exercise in I Told You So.

2) Wandering around an Eastern European branch line is one thing. Setting up shop on the 120mph Birmingham to Derby mainline is quite another. The UK also has mile after mile of substandard fencing. Take a wander around the secondary routes in the fens.

3) In the developing world life is cheap. Going back to that ethos is not a desirable ambition. We've come to an understanding that you only get one life and deleting some poor soul from existence as a result of misadventure doesn't make me feel any better about it than I do about killing hapless innocent animals on a day to day basis.

Is it acceptable to go back to killing a few hundred railway staff a year on the basis that safe systems of work are silly and over the top? No thanks.
 

yorksrob

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Is it acceptable to go back to killing a few hundred railway staff a year on the basis that safe systems of work are silly and over the top? No thanks.

In terms of safety, I agree with your point to an extent. But only to an extent.

I do not agree (for example) that further infill electrification with the third rail shouldn't be undertaken because it is supposedly "unsafe".
 

433N

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... In one recent TV show starring an erstwhile Tiswas presenter, a point was made about the fact that the main line ran between two rows of market stalls ...
Why so different in the UK?

What ? Sally James and trains. Wowser, this is the stuff of fantasies. :wub:
 
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1) Speaking as a traincrew member I'm not interested in witnessing a body sustain warzone style injuries just as a point scoring and educational exercise in I Told You So.

2) Wandering around an Eastern European branch line is one thing. Setting up shop on the 120mph Birmingham to Derby mainline is quite another. The UK also has mile after mile of substandard fencing. Take a wander around the secondary routes in the fens.

3) In the developing world life is cheap. Going back to that ethos is not a desirable ambition. We've come to an understanding that you only get one life and deleting some poor soul from existence as a result of misadventure doesn't make me feel any better about it than I do about killing hapless innocent animals on a day to day basis.

Is it acceptable to go back to killing a few hundred railway staff a year on the basis that safe systems of work are silly and over the top? No thanks.

Sadly, it isn't possible to manage, design or legislate away all risk. The UK has miles of substandard fencing because people keep pulling it down to take shortcuts across the railway. People WILL get hit by trains, just in the same way that they get hit by cars, buses and lorries.

I'm not bothered if the FS is taken out of service and put in a museum or put out to pasture at 25mph on a preserved railway, but the key to reducing the risk of a coupling/person interface is education in schools from the word go. Make it clear to kids just how horrible the aftermath of a person being hit by a train is and that the other side of the fence (even if it is mostly not there) isn't somewhere to go, at any time.

NR should identify the individuals in these videos and photos and throw the legal book at them as well as publicly humiliating them by publishing their names and faces in the national media.
 

LowLevel

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In terms of safety, I agree with your point to an extent. But only to an extent.

I do not agree (for example) that further infill electrification with the third rail shouldn't be undertaken because it is supposedly "unsafe".

No. The principle that we should, as someone else once put it, go back to the days of the only way a driver knowing he'd killed a platelayer on a blind bend was seeing a flat cap fly past the window, is however fairly abhorrent to me as is the concept of families wandering around on high speed mainlines.
 
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