• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Manchester - Euston £320 ret??

Status
Not open for further replies.

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
The anytime return fare is actually £350! Utterly insane.
The anytime single is £175, so exactly half.
Not sure where he gets £1320 for 4 from mind you.

As for your £125 single, NRE suggests that those are advance fares (so not walk on tickets).
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
The anytime return fare is actually £350! Utterly insane.
The anytime single is £175, so exactly half.
Not sure where he gets £1320 for 4 from mind you.

As for your £125 single, NRE suggests that those are advance fares (so not walk on tickets).
What is a standard class walk-on ticket? Can't look now as peak morning finished today!

If I had to leave home immediately for London - I've just been on the Virgin site and the 1315 is £41 single which I could book online right now, send to my phone (I think) or pick the tickets up at the station. If I was at Piccadilly Station right now, the next train is £51.50 looking at NRE which I presume I could buy from the machine on the concourse.
 
Last edited:

The_Train

Established Member
Joined
2 Jun 2018
Messages
4,313
Does it state time of travel, when he is returning and which Manchester station he is travelling from?
I've just checked on National Rail and I can travel on the 1115 Piccadilly to Euston for £41.00 (advance ticket still available) and return after 6pm on an off peak ticket for around £45.00. Not bad considering this allows me to travel in the next 15 minutes
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
What is a standard class walk-on ticket? Can't look now as peak morning finished today!

They are what I said in my post.
£350 return or £175 single (assuming Man Picc to Euston).
Utterly insane prices.

And yes - before anyone says, I know that few "normal" people will pay such fares but it is still insane. Especially as, if what is said above about advance fares being available for travel within 15 mins is true. How on earth can those prices be justified? Of course we all know Virgin want to move railway ticket pricing to be more like airline ticket pricing, and you can see that in these prices!
 

The_Train

Established Member
Joined
2 Jun 2018
Messages
4,313
They are what I said in my post.
£350 return or £175 single (assuming Man Picc to Euston).
Utterly insane prices.

And yes - before anyone says, I know that few "normal" people will pay such fares but it is still insane. Especially as, if what is said above about advance fares being available for travel within 15 mins is true. How on earth can those prices be justified? Of course we all know Virgin want to move railway ticket pricing to be more like airline ticket pricing, and you can see that in these prices!

I get confused over all of these different ticket prices. Is a walk on price that given when you turn up for travel and look to purchase your ticket there and then at a TVM or ticket office?

As for the advances, the 1115 is still available if anyone is interested ;) in fact there are advances available for the next 5 VT services out of Manc Picc getting as cheap as £29 (again that is from National Rail)
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
They are what I said in my post.
£350 return or £175 single (assuming Man Picc to Euston).
Utterly insane prices.

And yes - before anyone says, I know that few "normal" people will pay such fares but it is still insane. Especially as, if what is said above about advance fares being available for travel within 15 mins is true. How on earth can those prices be justified? Of course we all know Virgin want to move railway ticket pricing to be more like airline ticket pricing, and you can see that in these prices!
Thanks for that clarification - even so if you HAVE to travel out immediately (business call, family member ill etc) you probably wouldn't HAVE to come back peak and could buy your (anytime) return even just an hour in advance cheaper. Even buy it on the train out via wifi!!
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
Adds - surely the number of pax who have made an instant decision to travel, have walked to the station and bought the most expensive walk-on ticket (other than businessmen whose companies pay for the ticket) must be absolutely minute; people must surely realise now that even an hour ahead you can make significant savings by going on-line - maybe delay your journey by 20 mins could save £££'s??? But I'm not a railway insider checking tickets!!

Note; when I was in Ibiza and got a call at midnight that my mother had been taken very ill and could I return home (mainly to care for dad who was distraught) I was on to skyscanner and had a choice of three direct flights the following morning, cheapest was £450 and I was home by 2pm - I'd expect to do the same with the railways!! Certainly wouldn't just walk-on for long distance unless I was loaded or had my ticket paid for me!
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
I get confused over all of these different ticket prices.
It's understandable that there is confusion due to the widespread variation in restrictions and ticket types available throughout the country, but the ticketing for this route is among the simpler ones out there. There is the Anytime ticket, which is ludicrously priced (more expensive than a ticket to Edinburgh, which is just as valid to travel from Manchester to London and back) and which is valid at any time. There is the Off-Peak ticket, which is fairly reasonably priced as they go, and is not tied to a specific service, but which has extensive time restrictions. And then there is a range of Advance tickets, which are valid on the booked train only.

Is a walk on price that given when you turn up for travel and look to purchase your ticket there and then at a TVM or ticket office?
Anytime and Off-Peak tickets are known as walk-on tickets, because they can be purchased for the same price at any point up to the moment before you board, and they are not tied to a specific train. You can buy them on any means of ticket retailing. Advances are sold on apps and websites at any time up till 1 hour before departure for Virgin (time limits vary by company), and are sold up until the day before travel at the ticket office. You cannot buy them on ticket machines (though you can pick up ones bought online there).
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
14,871
Advances are sold on apps and websites at any time up till 1 hour before departure for Virgin (time limits vary by company), and are sold up until the day before travel at the ticket office. You cannot buy them on ticket machines (though you can pick up ones bought online there).
While this may be true of Virgin Trains, is not is true for all TOCs. LNER will sell on the day Advance tickets through TVMs and at Travel Centres, as well as on the web.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
While this may be true of Virgin Trains, is not is true for all TOCs. LNER will sell on the day Advance tickets through TVMs and at Travel Centres, as well as on the web.
Ah, but LNER are more focussed on actually generating revenue than Virgin, who seem more interested in stubbornly adhering to procedures (yes, that includes their woeful training of ticket office staff!)
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,535
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Ah, but LNER are more focussed on actually generating revenue than Virgin, who seem more interested in stubbornly adhering to procedures (yes, that includes their woeful training of ticket office staff!)

The TVMs concerned, which are a new design that sell via a rather cack-handed journey planner, were introduced by VTEC during their tenure.

That said, I can see why TOCs want to do this - move ticketing away from the station and there is a LOT of money to be saved.

One of the biggest issues is that people don't know when Advances will be released. With airlines, tickets are not on sale at all until released. With trains you just see the walk-ups and assume it's £300. There must be a better way to do this.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
The TVMs concerned, which are a new design that sell via a rather cack-handed journey planner, were introduced by VTEC during their tenure.

That said, I can see why TOCs want to do this - move ticketing away from the station and there is a LOT of money to be saved.

One of the biggest issues is that people don't know when Advances will be released. With airlines, tickets are not on sale at all until released. With trains you just see the walk-ups and assume it's £300. There must be a better way to do this.
People in general? Or that advances can be released at any time? Virgin release them 12 weeks in advance (I'm waiting to book 1st Aug) but I don't know if other TOC's have the same, different or just release when they feel like. So if I were travelling with any other TOC and looked up the fare today for 1st August, I would have no idea if cheaper tickets would be available if I waited - just like I would have no idea if the price Jet2 or Ryanair charge today would be less (or more) next month.

With airlines it's a lottery, presumably less so for the railways but will it be a lottery if they go down the airlines ticketing route?
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
Not to anything like the same effect. Prices still mostly trend up (or stay the same) up to departure, you almost never get £300 -> £20 which you can when Advances are released.
Sure? I get quotes of anything from £150 upwards when I first start searching flights, and when I leave it a bit those prices change, usually downwards. The most expensive flights can often be the ones just after the timetable is released; presumably pax who "must" have that flight will be willing to pay a lot upfront.

Example - I bought Man/IBZ with Ryanair a few days after it was released, and including a seat cost more than £150 - days later I checked the price which had gone substantially down but I booked it anyway first as I knew it was front row and likely to be away from rowdy stag do's further down the cabin...a Saturday afternoon summer flight :{ It worked, I stuck my headphones on and the rugby crowd way behind me might as well have been miles away!! BTW there was no real disruption and they were, like everyone else, just out to enjoy themselves. But I likes my peace and quiet :) Now, if planes had carriages....
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,535
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Sure? I get quotes of anything from £150 upwards when I first start searching flights, and when I leave it a bit those prices change, usually downwards. The most expensive flights can often be the ones just after the timetable is released; presumably pax who "must" have that flight will be willing to pay a lot upfront.

I don't believe I have ever experienced that. The only time I've seen them going down was "seat sales".

But even if true it's a bit different - with airlines it's deliberate, with the railway it's just cack-handed.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,980
Advance tickets being sold on the day of travel is a very recent thing.

Train Operating Companies are not obliged to sell Advance tickets at all so they could withdraw them from sale if they do wishes forcing passengers to pay the Anytime fare.

The London - Manchester Anytime fare can be used on any train, without reservation and gives flexibility over the route you may use. It is a complete rip-off which apparently almost no-one ever buys. The answer in my view is to reduce the price of this Anytime ticket rather than making Advance tickets available on the day of travel.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
Train Operating Companies are not obliged to sell Advance tickets at all so they could withdraw them from sale if they do wishes forcing passengers to pay the Anytime fare.

The London - Manchester Anytime fare can be used on any train, without reservation and gives flexibility over the route you may use. It is a complete rip-off which apparently almost no-one ever buys. The answer in my view is to reduce the price of this Anytime ticket rather than making Advance tickets available on the day of travel.
First part - they could and then they'd find they would have reduced income as the pax desert for the coaches and airlines!
 

Samuel88

On Moderation
Joined
20 Jan 2017
Messages
385

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,432
Location
Yorkshire
There are plans to reduce the cost of these very expensive Anytime fares, but any changes would be "revenue neutral", so for every £350 fare that goes down a lot, many of the lower priced fares that many people buy will have to raise, in order to make up what would otherwise be a shortfall in revenue for the TOCs.

At present, there are ways for savvy passengers to get around the more expensive fares. Also a comparison with car travel isn't really valid; you'd have to set off at about 03:30 to get to central London at the sort of time people who use these fares arrive into London!
 

Samuel88

On Moderation
Joined
20 Jan 2017
Messages
385
There are plans to reduce the cost of these very expensive Anytime fares, but any changes would be "revenue neutral", so for every £350 fare that goes down a lot, many of the lower priced fares that many people buy will have to raise, in order to make up what would otherwise be a shortfall in revenue for the TOCs.
But Virgin's arguement is that hardly anyone buys these full price fares, so how could they justify rising off peak fares? They can't have it both ways!
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,432
Location
Yorkshire
But Virgin's arguement is that hardly anyone buys these full price fares, so how could they justify rising off peak fares? They can't have it both ways!
As a proportion of total passengers, yes you could say "hardly anyone" buys them. But there are still hundreds that do, daily. So if the price came down to half the level that it currently is, all that shortfall has to be made up by increasing the lower priced fares. They want to abolish "off peak" fares and replace them with booked train only fares as that's apparently "simpler". There are a couple of threads on this already.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
They are what I said in my post.
£350 return or £175 single (assuming Man Picc to Euston).
Utterly insane prices.
And yes - before anyone says, I know that few "normal" people will pay such fares but it is still insane. Especially as, if what is said above about advance fares being available for travel within 15 mins is true. How on earth can those prices be justified? Of course we all know Virgin want to move railway ticket pricing to be more like airline ticket pricing, and you can see that in these prices!

If you just decided you must be in London first thing tomorrow, BA will charge you £334 (one way) on the 0700 to Heathrow.
You still have to get to Ringway and into central London, and pay £7 an hour in the car park.
That's why Virgin can charge £350 return (a bargain in comparison).
People do pay those sort of sums if they have to.
There are many ways of avoiding the high fares by planning ahead.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,432
Location
Yorkshire
There are many ways of avoiding the high fares by planning ahead.
Or use a split ticketing website, e.g. the 0643 Manchester to Euston gets you in before 9am for £84.50, though Virgin's own website will charge a lot more than that (and non-price sensitive people will pay up to £175 for this journey)
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,382
It may have been done to death, but it doesn't make it right or justifiable. If it were me there should be a cap on rail fares in the region of £100-150, and if the rail companies don't like it, they can get out of the game!

Well, so long as you'd be willing to pay the extra income tax, VAT or whatever to make up the difference ...
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,535
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Or use a split ticketing website, e.g. the 0643 Manchester to Euston gets you in before 9am for £84.50, though Virgin's own website will charge a lot more than that (and non-price sensitive people will pay up to £175 for this journey)

Very true, though a good many employers will insist you use their system and so splits are a bit more effort to do, or sometimes totally impossible.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,432
Location
Yorkshire
Very true, though a good many employers will insist you use their system and so splits are a bit more effort to do, or sometimes totally impossible.
Well in those cases, the company paying is prepared to pay that price then, even if the actual passenger can see how bonkers that is ;)

But really my point is that unless we increase subsidy (which I personally would pay more in taxes for), decreasing the higher fares is going to result in increasing the affordable fares that people like us pay for, which I can't accept.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,535
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But really my point is that unless we increase subsidy (which I personally would pay more in taxes for)

I would pay more tax for increased public transport subsidy (and for a number of other things such as the NHS and elderly care, as well as proper public toilet provision, to name three), but I think using it to reduce that fare is probably not the best first target, I'd rather see it spent on capacity and reliability improvements, such as a certain two platforms that need building at one end of that route, as well as reinstating lost subsidised bus services and proper timetable and fares integration in order to give us something more like what the Swiss enjoy.
 

anme

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2013
Messages
1,777
Well in those cases, the company paying is prepared to pay that price then, even if the actual passenger can see how bonkers that is ;)

But really my point is that unless we increase subsidy (which I personally would pay more in taxes for), decreasing the higher fares is going to result in increasing the affordable fares that people like us pay for, which I can't accept.

And I can accept. Businesses and commuters are not a magic money tree to pay for your days out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top