Train skipped stop unannounced - last train of night - what *should* have happened?

[jeremyjh]

Just been on the following service:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G19771/2019/05/11/advanced

We skipped South Croydon, a scheduled stop. This was apparently unplanned. A group of approx. 15 passengers caught up with the guard at Sanderstead, who was very polite and spoke to control, who told us we'd just have to walk back.

I know the distance between these two stops is not vast - and as it turns out there was one more bus left for the evening back towards town - but what *should* have been done?

 

[jeremyjh]

First up, I'm assuming I'm not making a delay repay claim for this - rather a refund claim on the grounds that they failed to get me to my destination.

 

[185143]

GTR should have provided alternative transport back, at their expense.

Not a chance I'd have just walked back. IF GTR control did say that, that's not really acceptable. What about any potential passengers waiting at South Croydon? What about any disabled/vulnerable passengers onboard being abandoned at a potentially unfamiliar (and presumably unstaffed-I don't know the area at all) station late at night?

I'd strongly encourage you to make a complaint, and don't accept being fobbed off for a second. I'm not sure a refund is appropriate (unless you're thinking of a CRA claim) as you have used the ticket.

 

[gray1404]

There was nothing stopping GTR control calling for taxis to transport passengers back. Totally disgusting.

 

[Statto]

Why did it skip the stop in the first place, as it passed through early, the idea to do a skip stop is when trains are quite late?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd have probably walked too, but the TOC should have offered, without needing to be asked, to arrange a bus or taxis, and Delay Repay should have been offered if the delay exceeded 15 minutes.

 

[Silverdale]

It would be disappointing if you were fobbed-off with 15 mins worth of Delay Repay.

Skipping the stop unannounced is the company's error. They added to this error by telling you to make your own way, having dumped you at the wrong station. A short and simple complaint about your disgust at their attitude to you and the other customers affected ought to be taken seriously, with an apology and some understanding for the way you were inconvenienced.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would complain

Expecting customers to walk back in the dark is unforgivable especially for those unfamiliar with the area.

GTR should look into this: did the driver "forget" or was he instructed to not stop at South Croydon?

 

[30907]

I would complain

Expecting customers to walk back in the dark is unforgivable especially for those unfamiliar with the area.

GTR should look into this: did the driver "forget" or was he instructed to not stop at South Croydon?

Likely to be driver error as it is the only Saturday train booked to call at South Croydon and RTT shows an 8min stop at Sanderstead.
Yes, control should have arranged for taxis. Ditto if there was a passenger waiting at South Croydon (unlikely!).
However, this would have realistically have taken some time, and some passengers might have chosen to walk (along a main road, not some country lane) or catch the bus. I wonder if the message from control waa along those lines and got misinterpreted?
I am surprised that no-one objected to being told to walk and crrtainly agree that a complaint is justified.

 

[Hadders]

A complaint is justified.

It's 1.2 miles from Sanderstead to South Croydon. If there was a bus due then this would be quicker than arranging taxis. GTR should, of course, refund the bus fare. Taxi should have been arranged for Any passengers who were unable to take the bus due to disability etc.

Any passengers waiting at South Croydon should have been offered taxis or alternative transport to their destination.

In all cases if arrival at the destination is more than 15 minutes late then Delay Repay should be claimed.

 

[etr221]

We skipped South Croydon, a scheduled stop. This was apparently unplanned. A group of approx. 15 passengers caught up with the guard at Sanderstead, who was very polite and spoke to control, who told us we'd just have to walk back.

I would have been tempted to reply "Along the track?"

 

[najaB]

A group of approx. 15 passengers caught up with the guard at Sanderstead, who was very polite and spoke to control, who told us we'd just have to walk back.

How confident are you that this was what Control actually said?

 

[WesternLancer]

Obv mistakes do happen, but surely the role of control is to then sort out the consequences.

Reminds me of a story my mum told me in the mid 1980s (she was a BR SR commuter and often used one of the ex London Bridge services that made rush hour stops at the rural stations that were not part of the regular stopping pattern during the day) - driver must have forgotten the stop and on realising this was happening due to speed of train on station approach, a fellow commuter just pulled the 'communication cord'! Obv the CIG unit train stopped some distance beyond the platforms, but I think after suitable exchange with the signaler (box at the station), train was backed up into platform.

Had someone done that after South Croydon as per OP, I bet the Control team would have had more paper work to do than just 'telling people to walk back'!

 

[Haywain]

Had someone done that after South Croydon as per OP, I bet the Control team would have had more paper work to do than just 'telling people to walk back'!

I hope that you're not actually suggesting that people use the passcomm in such a situation. Although it is worth bearing in mind that in a lot of modern rolling stock it won't stop the train but give an alarm to the driver, who will then stop at the next station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope that you're not actually suggesting that people use the passcomm in such a situation. Although it is worth bearing in mind that in a lot of modern rolling stock it won't stop the train but give an alarm to the driver, who will then stop at the next station.

Using the passcom in the event of a missed stop on a DOO service seems entirely sensible. You don't know why it was missed; the driver could be having health issues, for instance.

 

[JN114]

Passenger Emergency Alarm. However inconvenient; missing a stop isn’t an emergency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passenger Emergency Alarm. However inconvenient; missing a stop isn’t an emergency.

It potentially is. As I said, on a DOO service the driver could well be ill. On a guarded service or one with an OBS speaking to them may be better advised, provided they are not hiding in a cab.

 

[WesternLancer]

I hope that you're not actually suggesting that people use the passcomm in such a situation. Although it is worth bearing in mind that in a lot of modern rolling stock it won't stop the train but give an alarm to the driver, who will then stop at the next station.

well no, but I do think in reality it's quite possible (probable even) that a passenger might do this. Often passengers will have a view of railway safety far more informed by something like a disaster movie eg Runaway Train, than they would of the fail safe systems many of us on this forum will know exist.

"hey, we were supposed to stop there, is this train out of control / brakes gone wrong / driver jumped off etc etc etc, I'd better pull the emergency handle"

 

[221129]

It potentially is. As I said, on a DOO service the driver could well be ill. On a guarded service or one with an OBS speaking to them may be better advised, provided they are not hiding in a cab.

It is NOT an emergency. If the driver is ill the train will come to a stand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is NOT an emergency. If the driver is ill the train will come to a stand.

Depends on how he's ill - he may be delirious or something but still able to operate the various safety devices.

In any case, now the passcom is a passcom and not an emergency brake, I'd rather it was pulled than not pulled (as the driver can always cancel it if there's not an emergency) and I would suggest that those who think otherwise should reacquaint themselves with the Eschede disaster and how that might have been avoided.

 

[221129]

Depends on how he's ill - he may be delirious or something but still able to operate the various safety devices.

In any case, now the passcom is a passcom and not an emergency brake, I'd rather it was pulled than not pulled (as the driver can always cancel it if there's not an emergency) and I would suggest that those who think otherwise should reacquaint themselves with the Eschede disaster and how that might have been avoided.

If the driver is ill they will stop the train themselves. If not then the train will stop itself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the driver is ill they will stop the train themselves. If not then the train will stop itself.

Suit yourself. I consider it a potential safety issue and would use the passcom on a DOO service, and would defend in Court any attempt to prosecute me for it. Unlikely, though, as they don't even prosecute people who pull it as a joke (or because they can't find the bog flush) most of the time.

The driver might well be thankful if it alerted him to potentially ending up missing the next stop as well - quite likely if he thought he was meant to be running fast on a section of line. Failing that he'd just tell me to get lost and carry on driving.

 

[JN114]

Drivers should only override the passcomm if it is unsafe to stop; the train may be running fast at very late/no notice for very good reason. I’ve twice in recent weeks authorised drivers of DOO services to go non-stop to major stations due to medical emergencies on board. Having to stop to reset the passcomm because some have-a-go hero thinks the driver is missing stops because they’re unwell would have delayed the response to a genuine emergency.

It is a passenger emergency alarm. It is used for alerting the traincrew of an emergency. Missing your stop isn’t an emergency. Misuse can cause safety issues of its own.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Failing to call at a station is an operational incident It is entirely appropriate to use the pass comm. How would a passenger who wanted South Croydon know that the next station booked to call is only 1.2 miles away?
Technically a train failing to call could be considered a runaway until it is established it was a driver error

 

[AlterEgo]

Missing your stop isn't an emergency nor is it an indication to any reasonable person that the driver is unwell. Taxis should have been arranged, but who knows how long that would have taken? It's a 15 minute walk back, I'd have just done that personally and claimed a refund - though it's a different kettle of fish to someone elderly or disabled.

 

[221129]

Failing to call at a station is an operational incident It is entirely appropriate to use the pass comm. How would a passenger who wanted South Croydon know that the next station booked to call is only 1.2 miles away?
Technically a train failing to call could be considered a runaway until it is established it was a driver error

No. Not in the slightest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Drivers should only override the passcomm if it is unsafe to stop; the train may be running fast at very late/no notice for very good reason. I’ve twice in recent weeks authorised drivers of DOO services to go non-stop to major stations due to medical emergencies on board. Having to stop to reset the passcomm because some have-a-go hero thinks the driver is missing stops because they’re unwell would have delayed the response to a genuine emergency.

In such a case one would assume the driver would make a PA explaining what was to happen (or indeed to explain any of the many other deliberate reasons for missing a stop).

 

[mmh]

Drivers should only override the passcomm if it is unsafe to stop;

Genuine question: what circumstances would make it unsafe to stop?

It is a passenger emergency alarm. It is used for alerting the traincrew of an emergency. Missing your stop isn’t an emergency. Misuse can cause safety issues of its own.

I've used the alarm once in a situation that wasn't an emergency. Different because I used it when the train was at a stand at a terminus, though. I used the toilet on a train and was still in it when it arrived at the final stop, London Charing Cross. Couldn't get out because the inside door handle was missing. Banging on the door didn't work to get a passenger to help, so I pulled it. I think the driver must have already left the cab as it was about 10 minutes before a driver came along and let me out. I may well have delayed that train, it wasn't an emergency - at some point on its future trips to wherever someone would have gone to the toilet! Would I do it again? Of course.

 

[221129]

In such a case one would assume the driver would make a PA explaining what was to happen (or indeed to explain any of the many other deliberate reasons for missing a stop).

If they aren't too busy driving the train... if on restrictive aspects then I suspect making a PA is the last thing on their minds.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If they aren't too busy driving the train... if on restrictive aspects then I suspect making a PA is the last thing on their minds.

If the driver was paying attention, the stop wouldn't have been slipped so therefore no need for anyone to use the passcomm or for the driver to use the PA to explain anything and therefore become distracted
Its okay for a driver to make a mistake, but not for a passenger to use a perfectly acceptable form of communication to draw attention to the fact a mistake has been made?