Northern timetable changes May 2019

[geoffk]

One Liverpool - Man Airport - Crewe diagram was a pair of 156s today. Does anyone know if any of the new trains will be coming into service next week, i.e. classes 195, 331 and 769? (I assume not the last-mentioned). And I think a definite "no" for new TPE stock.

 

[Bovverboy]

One Liverpool - Man Airport - Crewe diagram was a pair of 156s today.

Not so long ago fifteen of Northern's seventeen 323s were diagrammed for duty on Mondays to Fridays, although two (I think) were idle between peaks. Now I can only account for twelve 323 diagrams, yet we're getting DMU substitution. Am I miscalculating?

Geoff K - any chance of saying which duty the 156s were on? I'll see if I can pinpoint when and where they were substituted.

 

[Thomas6187]

Next week it goes back up to 15 diagrams for the 323, including two more diagrams across Chat Moss. Departing Manchester they are 07:22, 08:22, 09:22, 10:22, 12:22, 17:23, 20:22 and 21:19.

 

[geoffk]

Not so long ago fifteen of Northern's seventeen 323s were diagrammed for duty on Mondays to Fridays, although two (I think) were idle between peaks. Now I can only account for twelve 323 diagrams, yet we're getting DMU substitution. Am I miscalculating?

Geoff K - any chance of saying which duty the 156s were on? I'll see if I can pinpoint when and where they were substituted.

It was the 0928 from Lime Street/1027 Oxford Road. I caught the following Alderley Edge train to Stockport, where there was a 323 parked in bay platform 3a.

I'm editing this to confirm that this was a single 156, not a pair, as confirmed by other observers.

 

[AMD]

Does anyone know if any of the new trains will be coming into service next week, i.e. classes 195, 331 and 769?

You're right about the 769s, no train crew are trained on them yet so no service for a little while. As for the 195s and 331s, conductor training has only just started and looks like sometime in July before enough train crew will be trained up for them to enter service.

 

[Bovverboy]

Geoff K - any chance of saying which duty the 156s were on? I'll see if I can pinpoint when and where they were substituted.

It was the 0928 from Lime Street/1027 Oxford Road. I caught the following Alderley Edge train to Stockport, where there was a 323 parked in bay platform 3a.

I've traced the above duty through and can find no clue as to where the 156s may have been either introduced or removed. They may have been on from the start, of course (Allerton). I don't think the existence of the 323 at Stockport would have been in any way connected to the 156s, it would have been parked there after operating 5H93 (0812 ECS ex-Picc, arr Stockport 0826) and before going to Stockport CMD at a scheduled 1903. I had always presumed this to be a 319 duty (it starts at Allerton) but I'm never up early enough to actually see it.

 

[M60lad]

From timetable change what times will 323s be departing Liverpool Lime Street? And will these extra 323 duties include Saturdays as well?

 

[Mathew S]

I've traced the above duty through and can find no clue as to where the 156s may have been either introduced or removed. They may have been on from the start, of course (Allerton). I don't think the existence of the 323 at Stockport would have been in any way connected to the 156s, it would have been parked there after operating 5H93 (0812 ECS ex-Picc, arr Stockport 0826) and before going to Stockport CMD at a scheduled 1903. I had always presumed this to be a 319 duty (it starts at Allerton) but I'm never up early enough to actually see it.

Those services are often 156s or 150s. I doubt it was a substitution of any kind.

And yes, that 323 seems to sit in the bay at Stockport all day.

 

[geoffk]

You're right about the 769s, no train crew are trained on them yet so no service for a little while. As for the 195s and 331s, conductor training has only just started and looks like sometime in July before enough train crew will be trained up for them to enter service.

Thanks. I thought that would be about right.

 

[Bovverboy]

I've traced the above duty through and can find no clue as to where the 156s may have been either introduced or removed. They may have been on from the start, of course (Allerton). I don't think the existence of the 323 at Stockport would have been in any way connected to the 156s, it would have been parked there after operating 5H93 (0812 ECS ex-Picc, arr Stockport 0826) and before going to Stockport CMD at a scheduled 1903. I had always presumed this to be a 319 duty (it starts at Allerton) but I'm never up early enough to actually see it.

Those services are often 156s or 150s

I hope you don't mind my asking, but which services are often 156s or 150s?

 

[Mathew S]

I hope you don't mind my asking, but which services are often 156s or 150s?

The Lime Street - Oxford Road services are always Sprinters; and generally at least one of the Lime Street - Manchester Airport diagrams. Wilmslow/Crewe services seem to be either 319 or 323 worked. It's not a route I use, but this is based on what I see at Ox Road and Picc when I'm travelling myself.

 

[Bovverboy]

I hope you don't mind my asking, but which services are often 156s or 150s?

The Lime Street - Oxford Road services are always Sprinters; and generally at least one of the Lime Street - Manchester Airport diagrams.

Well they wouldn't be EMUs, would they? There aren't any wires on the CLC route! Actually, what you're saying is almost the opposite of what I understood to be the position, i.e. Lime Street to Airport are almost always Sprinters (particularly, 156s) and Oxford Road stoppers can be Sprinters or Pacers.

Wilmslow/Crewe services seem to be either 319 or 323 worked. It's not a route I use, but this is based on what I see at Ox Road and Picc when I'm travelling myself.

Exactly.

Here, now, is what the OP said.

One Liverpool - Man Airport - Crewe diagram was a pair of 156s today.

It's a little unfortunate that the OP chose to select Oxford Road as a time marker, but it's a particularly significant location since that's where crew changes usually take place. For the record the Lime Street to Airport semi-fasts generally depart at xx.16, and the Oxford Road stoppers at xx.19 and xx.55.

It was the 0928 from Lime Street/1027 Oxford Road.

 

[td97]

DMU substitutions on 319 diagrams have been an almost daily occurrence for the last few months. Also discussed across various other Northern-related threads in the infrastructure and TRS sections of the forum.
Yesterday's 0928 was a 2 carriage train; presumably Northern short-formed a different service (CLC, New Mills and Rose Hill provide rich pickings) to provide 4 carriages at some point in the day for the rest of the diagram.
Today's choice for DMU vice EMU is a Wigan - Liverpool stopping service

 

[Mathew S]

Today's choice for DMU vice EMU is a Wigan - Liverpool stopping service

Been fairly standard for a while that one. Often the diagram that leaves Wigan NW Platform 6 at 0820-ish.

 

[Bovverboy]

Yesterday's 0928 was a 2 carriage train

Geoff K reckoned the 0928 was a double 156. You can't both be right.

One Liverpool - Man Airport - Crewe diagram was a pair of 156s today

It was the 0928 from Lime Street/1027 Oxford Road.

 

[geoffk]

Geoff K reckoned the 0928 was a double 156. You can't both be right.

Sorry - it must have been a single 156, I assumed double. td97 will be correct. I believe Northern has all the 319s it's due (25 units unless the "missing" 373 is also coming) but are there still some 319/4s waiting to be converted to 769s? I've noticed any for a while.

 

[Railperf]

What services are the 331s likely to be used for?

 

[xotGD]

What services are the 331s likely to be used for?

Leeds - Doncaster stoppers initially. Then they'll spread into Airedale and Wharfdale.

 

[td97]

What services are the 331s likely to be used for?

Also
Liverpool - Blackpool semi-fast
Manchester Airport - Blackpool via Bolton semi-fast

Is a single 319 the booked traction for 1N63 as of next week? It's pre-TT change equivalent, 1C54 is booked 2*185 and it definitely needs both units; even on Saturdays the patronage is impressive. I presume with 2*331/0s taking over in July pending crew training?

Edit: to add 1C54 is 1742 Manchester Airport to Barrow (1 unit detaches at Preston); 1N63 is 1740 Airport to Blackpool North

 

[Matt_pool]

The Lime Street - Oxford Road services are always Sprinters;

No they aren't, they also use Pacers.

They also use Pacers on the Lime Street - Man Airport services.

 

[Mathew S]

No they aren't, they also use Pacers.

They also use Pacers on the Lime Street - Man Airport services.

Yea, indeed. My bad. I tend to forget about Pacers with them all due to be got shot of.

 

[geoffk]

Leeds - Doncaster stoppers initially. Then they'll spread into Airedale and Wharfdale.

Does that mean some of the 333s moving elsewhere? Are the 331s not intended for Northern Connect services? Having said that, it seems that they are all diesel apart from Blackpool - Manchester Airport!

 

[northernchris]

Does that mean some of the 333s moving elsewhere? Are the 331s not intended for Northern Connect services? Having said that, it seems that they are all diesel apart from Blackpool - Manchester Airport!

The initial plan will free up some slack within the Neville Hill EMU fleet especially whilst the 333 refurb is ongoing. In the west I believe the 331s are to be used on routes the 323s are currently on, as well as Liverpool - Blackpool and Manchester Airport - Blackpool

 

[yorksrob]

So what routes are the 323's going to be used on ?

 

[Bovverboy]

Deleted - double post

 

[Bovverboy]

Also
Liverpool - Blackpool semi-fast
Manchester Airport - Blackpool via Bolton semi-fast

Is a single 319 the booked traction for 1N63 as of next week? It's pre-TT change equivalent, 1C54 is booked 2*185 and it definitely needs both units; even on Saturdays the patronage is impressive. I presume with 2*331/0s taking over in July pending crew training?

Edit: to add 1C54 is 1742 Manchester Airport to Barrow (1 unit detaches at Preston); 1N63 is 1740 Airport to Blackpool North

Surprisingly, perhaps, a 319 has a greater seating capacity than a double 185, probably because of its 3+2 layout. Which option will be best if crammed full of standees may need to be established from experience, but slight relief should come from there likely being no through passengers from Airport/Picc/Oxford Road to points north of Preston. There's going to be an Airport-Windermere at 1729 and an Airport-Barrow at 1829. 1N63 isn't going to connect with anything, in particular, at Preston. So you're going to be squeezed into a slighter smaller seat, but otherwise you should be okay.

 

[AMD]

I believe Northern has all the 319s it's due (25 units unless the "missing" 373 is also coming)

Going slightly off topic, but for clarity Northern has 26x 319/3 in use (319361-319386) and 1x 319/4 (319446) at present.

 

[Bovverboy]

And yes, that 323 seems to sit in the bay at Stockport all day.

It does seem strange that there should be DMU substitution on EMU duties when there is a 323 doing nothing. Adding to the irony, the only public service that particular 323 does is a single journey Alderley Edge to Piccadilly, although I don't know how many passengers actually patronise the said journey, so it might not be suitable for a 2-car DMU.

My own feeling is that if an EMU should be substituted by a shorter DMU, a prime candidate is the one which rests at Manchester Victoria for much of the day. I don't think its capacity gets strained, either AM or PM.

And a good question is, why does the 323 spend the afternoon peak out of use, when, overall, there is a shortage of rolling stock?

 

[AMD]

It does seem strange that there should be DMU substitution on EMU duties when there is a 323 doing nothing.

It depends which diagram needs covered - at present only Piccadilly and Lime Street sign 323s, whereas most depots sign 319s, so it's normally easier to pull a DMU from another diagram to cover a failed 319. Also there's the time issue of getting a stepped up unit to where it needs to be, so in the case of a Liverpool area failure a unit can be quickly nabbed from a Cheshire Lines diagram.

 

[Greybeard33]

So what routes are the 323's going to be used on ?

Northern's 323s are not PRM compliant and so have to be withdrawn by the end of the year unless modded by then. It appears Porterbrook is prioritising mods to the WMT 323 fleet, with a follow-on option for Northern's during 2020. See Rumours of all 323s to now go to Northern and subsequent discussion.