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Train skipped stop unannounced - last train of night - what *should* have happened?

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Bletchleyite

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If they aren't too busy driving the train... if on restrictive aspects then I suspect making a PA is the last thing on their minds.

If on restrictive aspects it's maybe not ideal to be gabbing to Control about a medical emergency either, so surely the driver would stop, deal with the situation, make a PA then proceed fast to the relevant location.
 
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mmh

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I'd never advocate gung-ho use of "passcoms" (I'm not that old but I still think of them as communication cords!) but doesn't doesn't discouraging using them contradict the "see it, say it, sorted" mantra a bit?
 
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Struner

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Why be so apologetic? The train didn't stop at my station. & how do I know what's going to happen next? & what means of communications have I got?
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd never advocate gung-ho use of "passcoms" (I'm not that old but I still think of them as communication cords!) but doesn't doesn't discouraging using them contradict the "see it, say it, sorted" mantra a bit?

Well, quite.

I refer again to the Eschede disaster, where people didn't pull it (and on German stock of that vintage it is an actual emergency brake) despite a bit of wheel sticking through the floor. If they had, people might not have died.

I think we overdo the discouragement, TBH. With it now just being a means of talking to staff, better report something than not.
 

JN114

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Failing to call at a station is an operational incident It is entirely appropriate to use the pass comm. How would a passenger who wanted South Croydon know that the next station booked to call is only 1.2 miles away?
Technically a train failing to call could be considered a runaway until it is established it was a driver error

The passenger isn’t in a position to judge what is or isn’t an operational incident. Nor are they usually in a position to judge whether the driver is skipping the stop or just braking late until it’s too late to use the passcomm to “remind” the driver. The driver may be well aware they’ve messed up, but not yet got around to announcing it. Passcomm means they have to stop, usually in the middle of nowhere, go back and reset then carry on. In many cases you can’t override them indefinitely from the cab; only delay them to ensure the train ends up stopped somewhere safe.
 

Bletchleyite

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The passenger isn’t in a position to judge what is or isn’t an operational incident.

See it, say it, sorted.

It's not about knowing that it is an incident, it's about reporting that it might be.

Again, if someone had done that at Eschede there's a fair chance it would just have caused minor inconvenience.
 

JN114

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A bit of wheel sticking through the floor is an emergency.

There is no conceivable emergency situation the passenger could be concerned about resulting from failure to call.
 

JN114

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Genuine question: what circumstances would make it unsafe to stop?

Don’t want to stop in a location with difficult access to deal with the emergency - tunnels, viaducts etc.
 

WesternLancer

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All these points are all very well, but the point I was making was that you can't predict what a passenger might do in such circs. It may well not be an emergency, but that wont stop a passenger thinking it is and doing it!

Just like people who ring 999 for what seem like daft things in a way.
 

JN114

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All these points are all very well, but the point I was making was that you can't predict what a passenger might do in such circs. It may well not be an emergency, but that wont stop a passenger thinking it is and doing it!

Just like people who ring 999 for what seem like daft things in a way.

That I agree with. Passengers absolutely are going to do it.

What we’ve had here though is members saying they’d pull the passcomm in an identical situation. I can only condemn such behaviour in a public setting such as this.
 

furlong

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I'm with Bletchleyite on this one - this would be about safety, not delay minutes. A passenger might imagine a likely reason for failing to stop at a station without making an announcement is a severe lapse in driver concentration (or even semi-unconsciousness) - the train needs to stop as soon as possible for somebody to check whether or not the driver is OK and in a fit state to continue.
 

JN114

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I'm with Bletchleyite on this one - this would be about safety, not delay minutes. A passenger might imagine a likely reason for failing to stop at a station without making an announcement is a severe lapse in driver concentration (or even semi-unconsciousness) - the train needs to stop as soon as possible for somebody to check whether or not the driver is OK and in a fit state to continue.

And who makes the judgement that the driver is or isn’t fit when a do-gooding passenger stops a DOO train in the middle of nowhere? You can’t judge someone’s fitness for duty over the telephone; the passenger won’t be competent to judge.
 

bionic

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Could have been an error on the drivers diagram. I've had diagrams in the past where I'm booked to call all stops along a route that is blocked for engineering work and not found out until the junction signal. I've also had random station stops missing from diagrams even though the train is advertised as calling there. I've also had stops on the diagram which the train is not booked to call at. It's perfectly feasible this driver failed to call, but its equally feasible that South Croydon wasn't on the diagram - in which case the driver has done nothing wrong and it's a planning error.
 

scrapy

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If the driver was paying attention, the stop wouldn't have been slipped so therefore no need for anyone to use the passcomm or for the driver to use the PA to explain anything and therefore become distracted
Its okay for a driver to make a mistake, but not for a passenger to use a perfectly acceptable form of communication to draw attention to the fact a mistake has been made?
Do we know the driver made a mistake? It could be that their schedule card is wrong or was authorised to miss the stop.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Do we know the driver made a mistake? It could be that their schedule card is wrong or was authorised to miss the stop.
How can the passenger know that everything is well if an advertised stop is not called at, without an announcement?

If I found myself in this scenario (the nearest I have been on is a platform overshoot on a guarded service, so not nearly the same thing, though the irregular calling pattern no doubt contributed!), I would certainly not shy away from using the pass-com if it seemed appropriate. I would not have a blanket rule against it. It is always better to be safe rather than sorry, so I see no harm in pulling the pass-com if it appears there is a serious problem.
 

ashkeba

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All these points are all very well, but the point I was making was that you can't predict what a passenger might do in such circs. It may well not be an emergency, but that wont stop a passenger thinking it is and doing it!

Just like people who ring 999 for what seem like daft things in a way.
The police 101 non-urgent number currently has a recorded message telling you to hang up and call 999 for any crime in progress. I think they prefer the public to play it safe, overreport and let the professionals decide. Shouldn't the same apply on trains?
 

WesternLancer

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The police 101 non-urgent number currently has a recorded message telling you to hang up and call 999 for any crime in progress. I think they prefer the public to play it safe, overreport and let the professionals decide. Shouldn't the same apply on trains?
I take your point, tho I think 101 is manged by each force area, so that message might be what you get in your area, but not in mine.

My experience of ringing it, sometimes, and in this scenario where someone in the control worked out if this was a BTP non emergency call, or a local force matter, would at least kill time until the start of services the next morning...:D
 

Deafdoggie

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See it, Say it, sorted. Don't make that announcement continuously and then expect passengers not to follow the advise. Rail staff on here like it all ways, and can never be wrong. A train missing a stop and no announcement being made is something you have seen, you are saying it, it should be sorted.

Either stop the announcements or accept the consequences.
 
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Surreytraveller

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I see the hindsight police are busy. Perhaps if someone considers there to be an urgent problem or emergency in future, perhaps the law needs to be changed to consult railforums.co.uk before taking any action
 

Haywain

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See it, Say it, sorted. Don't make that announcement continuously and then expect passengers not to follow the advise. Rail staff on here like it all ways, and can never be wrong. A train missing a stop and no announcement being made is something you have seen, you are saying it, it should be sorted.
I think you'll find that the messages you refer to advise texting the BTP on 61016, not activating the passcomm to stop the train.
 

Deafdoggie

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They vary. Some say that, others say to alert a member of the train crew. The point remains the same "See it, say it, sorted" Or are you saying it should be "See a few certain things, but by no means everything. Say it, but only in pre-described ways, and certainly not in an in emergency contact way, sorted"?
 

Deafdoggie

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The official line is (from the BTP website) is
Everyone who uses the rail network is being urged to report anything unusual either in person to rail staff, text us on 61016 or calling 0800 40 50 40, helping to keep the UK’s rail network safe.
BTP Temporary Assistant Chief Constable Alun Thomas said: “I would urge anyone who spots anything unusual to speak to rail staff or contact BTP by texting 61016 or calling 0800 40 50 40. Don’t be afraid to report anything that feels out of place. We rely on information from the public to help us keep the rail network safe. If it doesn’t feel right, we want to hear from you. Let us decide if what you have seen or what you know is important. We will check the information thoroughly.”

A train hurtling at full line speed through a station it should have called at, is something that doesn't seem right to me. It therefore should be reported. To a member of rail staff is the correct communication method.
 

ComUtoR

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If someone pulled the passcom because I'd missed a stop. I'd most likely cancel the train at the next stop.
 

Deafdoggie

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If someone pulled the passcom because I'd missed a stop. I'd most likely cancel the train at the next stop.

Yes, I can see how that would be helpful. Particularly on the last train of the day. It is a shame that rail staff have such a negative attitude to passengers taking concerns seriously.
 
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