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LNER Azuma (Class 800/801)

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Mark62

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I haven’t had the chance to try out the units but on Thursday the one that pulled out of Newcastle, on low power, was not quiet. There was my voyager alongside and the noise from that was dreadful. So there an improvement there. But we aren’t comparing g them to the new units
For long distance I always travel first class on the EC. The mK 4 is simply stunning.in the current climate where profit come before people, it’s highly unlikely the azuma will equal the mark 4 for comfort.
I am 6ft 4 so have long legs. I’ve done a few short trips on the EC recently in second class and there’s just enough room for my legs. On a voyager it’s impossible. The mk 4 also has very supportive seats and reclined just enough for comfort in second class. It’s obvious that azuma seats are almost vertical, as are voyager seats, which are torture for me.It’s stated that second class azuma has an extra 7cm leg room. This may or may not be so. Unfortunately this is counteracted by the lack of recline of the seat.
On short journeys on a voyager I prefer to stand in the vestibule rather than be tortured in a second class straitjacket.
Given the angle or lack of it on the azuma, then it’s probably going to be the vestibule for me.
I am of a lean build. I would suggest that anyone whom is of a large built is going to have a journey from hell in a second class azuma seat dur to their upright position.
I am all for progress but in my book, this means , quicker journey times, and a more comfortable journey. I am old fashioned as it see progress from the point of view of the customer rather than these point of view of a multi national rich company
I honestly do not envisage that these new units will be superior to what we have already.
This is why I am so critical as I believe we, the taxpayer just wasting so much money for no other reason than making rich companies even richer
As passengers and taxpayers we are being used and are nothing more than pawns in the corporate world of politics
I’d love nothing more than to have a truly improving rail network. But from a passengers point of view there’s no evidence of this. I can only get a decent travelling experience in first class. In second class it’s always unsatisfying at best.
I travel a lot by rail and I call a spade a spade. I must be therefore an anachronism
 
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Bald Rick

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I had my first trip on an 800 last week and I have to say I am surprised to hear what you are saying on some points here. The seats are awful...that I agree on and I really hope the LNER ones are better in some way but I can't see it. The leg room on the GWR is great though and so unless LNER has used a different configuration there is nothing to worry about on that front. I was hugely impressed with diesel mode. Very quiet indeed and I doubt most people realised we had switched. That said, I am very interested to see what it all sounds and feels like at 125mph. I think they do a lot less than that between Didcot and Oxford. I hope that they don't suddenly get all shaky when they are built to go quicker.

Certainly in my experience on the Western, you have to be specifically looking/hearing/feeling out for when the train switches electric-diesel and vv. in diesel mode it is far quieter than anything else I’ve experienced with underfloor engines.
 

supervc-10

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That depends which coach you're in on an 800/802 doesn't it? Not all of them have engines under the floor. Driving cars and some centre cars on the 9-car units, according to wiki, don't have an engine.
 

anamyd

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I am 6ft 4 so have long legs. I’ve done a few short trips on the EC recently in second class and there’s just enough room for my legs. On a voyager it’s impossible. The mk 4 also has very supportive seats and reclined just enough for comfort in second class. It’s obvious that azuma seats are almost vertical, as are voyager seats, which are torture for me.

It’s stated that second class azuma has an extra 7cm leg room. This may or may not be so. Unfortunately this is counteracted by the lack of recline of the seat.

On short journeys on a voyager I prefer to stand in the vestibule rather than be tortured in a second class straitjacket.

I would suggest that anyone whom is of a large built is going to have a journey from hell in a second class azuma seat dur to their upright position.

I can only get a decent travelling experience in first class. In second class it’s always unsatisfying at best.
I thought standard class replaced third class, not second class!
 

cactustwirly

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I haven’t had the chance to try out the units but on Thursday the one that pulled out of Newcastle, on low power, was not quiet. There was my voyager alongside and the noise from that was dreadful. So there an improvement there. But we aren’t comparing g them to the new units
For long distance I always travel first class on the EC. The mK 4 is simply stunning.in the current climate where profit come before people, it’s highly unlikely the azuma will equal the mark 4 for comfort.
I am 6ft 4 so have long legs. I’ve done a few short trips on the EC recently in second class and there’s just enough room for my legs. On a voyager it’s impossible. The mk 4 also has very supportive seats and reclined just enough for comfort in second class. It’s obvious that azuma seats are almost vertical, as are voyager seats, which are torture for me.It’s stated that second class azuma has an extra 7cm leg room. This may or may not be so. Unfortunately this is counteracted by the lack of recline of the seat.
On short journeys on a voyager I prefer to stand in the vestibule rather than be tortured in a second class straitjacket.
Given the angle or lack of it on the azuma, then it’s probably going to be the vestibule for me.
I am of a lean build. I would suggest that anyone whom is of a large built is going to have a journey from hell in a second class azuma seat dur to their upright position.
I am all for progress but in my book, this means , quicker journey times, and a more comfortable journey. I am old fashioned as it see progress from the point of view of the customer rather than these point of view of a multi national rich company
I honestly do not envisage that these new units will be superior to what we have already.
This is why I am so critical as I believe we, the taxpayer just wasting so much money for no other reason than making rich companies even richer
As passengers and taxpayers we are being used and are nothing more than pawns in the corporate world of politics
I’d love nothing more than to have a truly improving rail network. But from a passengers point of view there’s no evidence of this. I can only get a decent travelling experience in first class. In second class it’s always unsatisfying at best.
I travel a lot by rail and I call a spade a spade. I must be therefore an anachronism

These trains are a lot more comfortable than a Voyager, and many people actually prefer upright seats that give you support
Loads of conspiracy theories there, but the taxpayer isn't directly paying for these trains, they're being financed through a sort of RoSCo which gets paid by the TOC.
The trains themselves, were the best trains offered that met the spec, and were probably the cheapest.
It really isn't a waste of money as the HSTs desperately need replacing, and it makes more financial sense to replace the 91s at the same time.
They offer improved legroom, and offer a significant increase in seating capacity compared to the Mk4s
 

43096

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These trains are a lot more comfortable than a Voyager, and many people actually prefer upright seats that give you support
A lot? I would strongly disagree with that. They are both uncomfortable in different ways. Besides, saying something is better than one of the worst Inter-City trains ever built is a case of "damning with faint praise" if ever there was one.

Loads of conspiracy theories there, but the taxpayer isn't directly paying for these trains, they're being financed through a sort of RoSCo which gets paid by the TOC.
The trains themselves, were the best trains offered that met the spec, and were probably the cheapest.
It really isn't a waste of money as the HSTs desperately need replacing, and it makes more financial sense to replace the 91s at the same time.
But the taxpayer is ultimately paying, whichever way you look at it. The railway has only two sources of funding: the passenger and the taxpayer. That these trains have been procured through an eye-wateringly expensive PFI-type deal means that the taxpayer is paying more as the subsidy to the operator is greater to pay for them (or premium lower). The whole project represents incredibly poor value for everyone (including taxpayers and passengers) except Agility Trains - we've got an inflexible (contractually), poorly specified train that has poor build quality (especially when you compare it to the price). The whole project is, frankly, an utter fiasco.
 

TheNekomancer

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Messages
9
1D11 1103 Kings Cross-Leeds and 1A33 1345 back are the two trains involved.

Not sure why anyone would want to do a Satsuma - there will be plenty of them in the coming years - but each to their own!
Thank you for that, I was looking at real time trains and LNER's website for the info but couldn't find it.
 

31160

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Joined
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Messages
660
A lot? I would strongly disagree with that. They are both uncomfortable in different ways. Besides, saying something is better than one of the worst Inter-City trains ever built is a case of "damning with faint praise" if ever there was one.


But the taxpayer is ultimately paying, whichever way you look at it. The railway has only two sources of funding: the passenger and the taxpayer. That these trains have been procured through an eye-wateringly expensive PFI-type deal means that the taxpayer is paying more as the subsidy to the operator is greater to pay for them (or premium lower). The whole project represents incredibly poor value for everyone (including taxpayers and passengers) except Agility Trains - we've got an inflexible (contractually), poorly specified train that has poor build quality (especially when you compare it to the price). The whole project is, frankly, an utter fiasco.


Yes I agree to all that but I think one of the main reasons they were ordered was so they current shower sort of passing for a government can cancel lors of expensive infrastructure upgrades and instead spend some money on tax brakes for Amazon or some such
 

Railperf

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Messages
2,919
These trains are a lot more comfortable than a Voyager, and many people actually prefer upright seats that give you support
Loads of conspiracy theories there, but the taxpayer isn't directly paying for these trains, they're being financed through a sort of RoSCo which gets paid by the TOC.
The trains themselves, were the best trains offered that met the spec, and were probably the cheapest.
It really isn't a waste of money as the HSTs desperately need replacing, and it makes more financial sense to replace the 91s at the same time.
They offer improved legroom, and offer a significant increase in seating capacity compared to the Mk4s
I'm not convinced the Azuma's are any more comfortable!
Having recently spent a few days sampling LNER Mk3 and MK4 coaches, i can say with some certainty that both environments are much nicer places to sit for several hours - comparing with GWR 800 and 802 stock.
But to put things into perspective, some of the full and standing trains i saw on Friday will be more comfortable once switched to Azuma operation because they will offer more seats, and sitting is much more comfy than standing in a draughty vestibule!
There was never any desperate need to replace the HST's or Class 91 loco hauled sets. Both provide a very good service - despite their age - thanks to a refresh of the interiors, and the power cars re-engining and can /will continue to do so for other operators for some time yet.
You cannot argue with the virtues of the new trains, lower pollution levels as hopefully these will be running solely in electric mode under the wires.
Also improved performance due to distributed traction and a higher power to weight ratio offering faster acceleration and potentially lower journey times in electric mode -using less energy.
Were these the best trains that met the spec? I understood these trains were built to meet the spec. No train existed that met the DfT spec!
Stadler's FLIRT bi-modes are late to the party - and we look forward to seeing how they compare in terms of comfort and performance.
 

Mikey C

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6,830
I had a look at one of these azuma running as dmu from Newcastle on Thursday at Newcastle.
As it pulled slowly out of platform 2 , engines were noisy and every carriage was vibrating badly.
Compared to a beautifully quiet hst, this was like a 101.
Seats appeared cramped compared to mk4 stock and more upright, this gives much less comfort but allows more cattle into the stalls.
I can’t see any improvement over current rolling stock. Of course , Hitachi are richer and the taxpayers are poorer.
Given that it’s the taxpayers who travel and pay for these trains don’t you think we should benefit rather than hitachi
The only winners here are hitachi. But he who pays the piper gets all the gold
That depends on whom the piper is. In days gone by that would have been us, the voters and the taxpayers
Not any more.
We seem to spending so much money on products clearly inferior to what we already have.
Improvements ?
Hitachi dividends to shareholders
Not much else

The 80x stock have much better legroom than the Mk4s, which I found pretty cramped yesterday actually.

A flaw which I've noticed on the 80x stock, which is also the case with the Grand Central 180s is that the seat aren't attached the walls, and hence there are 2 legs beneath them instead of 1 (as with the Mk 4s and indeed the 387s). This does impact a bit on footroom in the window seat
 

Jimini

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Railperf

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Can someone enlighten me as to the PR *BS* that refers to these as having 'bullet train technology'???
 

GrimShady

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I haven’t had the chance to try out the units but on Thursday the one that pulled out of Newcastle, on low power, was not quiet. There was my voyager alongside and the noise from that was dreadful. So there an improvement there. But we aren’t comparing g them to the new units
For long distance I always travel first class on the EC. The mK 4 is simply stunning.in the current climate where profit come before people, it’s highly unlikely the azuma will equal the mark 4 for comfort.
I am 6ft 4 so have long legs. I’ve done a few short trips on the EC recently in second class and there’s just enough room for my legs. On a voyager it’s impossible. The mk 4 also has very supportive seats and reclined just enough for comfort in second class. It’s obvious that azuma seats are almost vertical, as are voyager seats, which are torture for me.It’s stated that second class azuma has an extra 7cm leg room. This may or may not be so. Unfortunately this is counteracted by the lack of recline of the seat.
On short journeys on a voyager I prefer to stand in the vestibule rather than be tortured in a second class straitjacket.
Given the angle or lack of it on the azuma, then it’s probably going to be the vestibule for me.
I am of a lean build. I would suggest that anyone whom is of a large built is going to have a journey from hell in a second class azuma seat dur to their upright position.
I am all for progress but in my book, this means , quicker journey times, and a more comfortable journey. I am old fashioned as it see progress from the point of view of the customer rather than these point of view of a multi national rich company
I honestly do not envisage that these new units will be superior to what we have already.
This is why I am so critical as I believe we, the taxpayer just wasting so much money for no other reason than making rich companies even richer
As passengers and taxpayers we are being used and are nothing more than pawns in the corporate world of politics
I’d love nothing more than to have a truly improving rail network. But from a passengers point of view there’s no evidence of this. I can only get a decent travelling experience in first class. In second class it’s always unsatisfying at best.
I travel a lot by rail and I call a spade a spade. I must be therefore an anachronism

I would say that LNER MK4/3 First is one of the best traveling environments one can get.

Unfortunately this is coming to and end soon, so I now have the choice between Pendolinos or 800s both equally as bad as each other interior wise.....CS Sleeper for me it is :D
 

SHerr

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27 Jul 2018
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Can someone enlighten me as to the PR *BS* that refers to these as having 'bullet train technology'???

Because they are made by a company who once built some bullet trains in a different factory, in a different country with different components and different staff!

A bit like marketing a Honda Jazz as being powered by Formula One World Championship winning engine technology.
 

Railperf

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Any bets as to how long before the first Azuma in passenger service ends up in diesel mode only ..under the wires ;)
 
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greyman42

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I was told that 800s are now cleared to run on electric from Colton to Darlington. Is this the case and if so why are sets being tested from the south into York still running on diesel?
 

cactustwirly

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Any bets as to how long before the first Azuma in passenger service ends up in diesel mode only ..under the wires ;)

Well LNER have the advantage that all the depots are under wires, so it's easier to check the electrical equipment.
With GWR only North Pole is able to repair the pantographs etc
Now that Stoke Gifford is now live, the problem should ease, hopefully
 
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td97

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Hopefully the first one to run 1J10 20:28 Hull - Doncaster as the last leg of the initial diagram
What's the prospect of 'panning-up' at Temple Hirst Jn?
Well LNER have the advantage that all the depots are under wires, so it's easier to check the electrical equipment.
With GWR only North Pole is able to repair the pantographs etc
The more promising side for LNER is that 2* of the 3** depots are established and presumably well-staffed. The same cannot be said for the GWR fleet's facilities.
*Bounds Green, Craigentinny
**+Doncaster Carr
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Can someone enlighten me as to the PR *BS* that refers to these as having 'bullet train technology'???

They are no more "bullet trains" than the HST, Pendolino and any train with an aerodynamic front end and which goes "fast" in British terms.
It's a term for lazy journalists rather like "Chunnel" still is to a certain type of tourist who thinks it is somehow an official name.
No doubt from the same source as "Brexit".
Class 80x is actually a derivation of Hitachi's regional A-train (as is class 395) with some advanced traction features.
 

43096

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What's the prospect of 'panning-up' at Temple Hirst Jn?

The more promising side for LNER is that 2* of the 3** depots are established and presumably well-staffed. The same cannot be said for the GWR fleet's facilities.
That’s not really an excuse. (s)Hitachi had years to get the depots set up.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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For what it's worth, this is the report on the launch of the Azuma service in Railway Gazettte:
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ew/lner-launches-hitachi-azuma-trainsets.html
It also says LNER will retain 6 HSTs for use on diverted routes during the King's Cross remodelling next year.

The entire fleet of 65 trains will be delivered over the next year, allowing LNER to withdraw its ex-British Rail IC125 diesel and IC225 electric push-pull fleets. However, LNER expects to seek a derogation to retain six of the 200 km/h diesel trainsets for up to six months from the end of 2019, despite them not being PRM compliant, as planned remodelling work at London King’s Cross will require the use of other terminal stations in London which currently cannot handle the Azuma trains.

The first IC125 is due to be handed back to its leasing company on May 16, and the use of Class 90 locomotives, which have been hired from the freight sector to supplement LNER’s Class 91 fleet, is expected to end in mid-June.

The first five-car Class 801 EMUs should be delivered by the end of June, enabling type testing to be completed. LNER said one of the challenges for drivers would be the coupling of Azumas during diagrams, which will be a key feature of its enhanced service pattern. The Leeds – London route will be the first to be operated using Azumas, with the Hull – London service also due to switch very soon.

There is still plenty of work to do on the OHLE upgrade before the full Edinburgh service can be run.
 

Mikey C

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Sorry, as I'm sure it's been answered but I couldn't find it

What services will the 5 car electric only 801s be used on. I can understand the 5 car 800s as these can continue onto quieter unelectrified lines, but can't think of where 5 car or 2 * 5 electric services would go.
 

xotGD

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Big feature on the Azuma introduction on 'Look North' this evening. Positive publicity for LNER.

And a nice run through history with Flying Scotsman, Mallard, Deltics, HSTs and 91s.
 

ainsworth74

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Now that they're about to enter service now seems an appropriate time to remind everyone that diagrams or requests regarding what services they are currently on should be posted in this thread. Impressions of the stock as people start travelling on them can be posted here (as well as the various other things that we've touched on in this thread).

The idea behind this is to try an avoid diagrams being buried in chat about other things. On the GWR Class 800 thread it became very difficult to ferret out the diagrams that were actually IETs. Particularly for those that weren't keeping up with the entire thread!

So please do try and keep diagrams and diagram request to the linked thread here and hopefully that will make it easier for everyone.

Thanks,
ainsworth74
 
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