New Chester to Leeds service

[driver_m]

If Northern add more stops it will mean more stock is needed as the turnround times at Chester are short as it is.
Chester is very keen to get faster services to Manchester, which the Northern service achieves.
It does stop at both Earlestown and Newton le Willows which is curious for a semi-fast service.
You'd think a stop at Frodsham or Runcorn East would be more use instead of Earlestown.
The peak Northern trains do stop at all stations, and the odd off-peak one also at Eccles.

Probably because it has the rather large market of St Helens to pick at by stopping there, plus it’s only 20mph through the platforms. Do we have to keep having these discussions about the merits or otherwise of stops at ERL/NLW. It’s in a heavily populated area compared to Frodsham, has a wide catchment area thanks to the road network surrounding it and is clearly going to work at adding capacity to Manchester which is notorious for overcrowding in peaks.

 

[mspljd1990]

Probably been mentioned already, but which rolling stock will be used on this service? I've read that eventually it'll be the Class 195, but will it be ready by the time the service is introduced? I'm guessing it might be 158, which Northern like to use on a lot of their long distance services.

 

[Mathew S]

Probably been mentioned already, but which rolling stock will be used on this service? I've read that eventually it'll be the Class 195, but will it be ready by the time the service is introduced? I'm guessing it might be 158, which Northern like to use on a lot of their long distance services.

They've been using a 158 for the testing/route learning so I'd guess that's your answer. Don't be surprised to see other things pop up though, this is Northern after all.

 

[Starmill]

Walk up Northern Only tickets to Chester from various destinations will apparently be made available to complement the introduction of these new services. Some Advance tickets for the new service are already on sale.

 

[Deerfold]

Interesting.

I can't find any advances to Chester from any further away than Hebden Bridge.

I thought there might be some from Leeds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Probably been mentioned already, but which rolling stock will be used on this service? I've read that eventually it'll be the Class 195, but will it be ready by the time the service is introduced? I'm guessing it might be 158, which Northern like to use on a lot of their long distance services.

Northern 158s are rare west of Manchester but common on the Calder Valley routes.
158s are of course not unusual between Manchester (south side) and Chester on TfW services, mixed in with the 175s.
The usual mix of Northern trains at Chester is 142/150 with the odd 156.

 

[cle]

What is the platform plan at Chester?

Thinking it’ll be a fair bit busier there soon, train moves and people-wise - what with the Halton/Liverpool services joining the fray at the same time.

Both use the same route out towards Frodsham. Will they be tometabled our
of Chester at 30 min intervals?

Inevitable one heads west or to Wrexham at least, in medium term, but curious as to the plan for now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What is the platform plan at Chester?
Thinking it’ll be a fair bit busier there soon, train moves and people-wise - what with the Halton/Liverpool services joining the fray at the same time.
Both use the same route out towards Frodsham. Will they be tometabled our of Chester at 30 min intervals?
Inevitable one heads west or to Wrexham at least, in medium term, but curious as to the plan for now.

From RTT, the new Liverpool and Leeds services are due to use P5 and P6 at Chester - varying during the day.
The Liverpool has a fast turnround (typically xx24/30, the Leeds a bit longer (eg xx09/20).
The existing TfW Manchester Piccadilly/Airport remains as now around xx50, and Northern's Piccadilly service via Northwich is at xx50/02 with a long layover in P5.

There are changes in the peaks, with the Liverpool running to Wrexham via P3 (with no service to Liverpool at 1830).​

With the Leeds-Chester diverted to Ellesmere Port in the peak, there's no Chester-Leeds at 1820 either (or at 0720).

So Chester-Manchester is roughly at a 30 minute interval, but westbound Northern will closely follow the TfW service.
There's an hourly Sunday service Chester to Liverpool, but nothing to Leeds.

 

[cle]

Cool, thanks for the info.

Didn’t know about the Wrexham, is that additional or combining a service?

Still, a good precedent for beyond Chester service. Hope it is popular. I wonder if Wrexham-Manchester has much demand also. Can’t see Calder/Leeds to North Wales as worthwhile for through journeys, but Liverpool 100%.

 

[driver_m]

It’s good to see Chester becoming a bit of a transport hub with all these extra services and promised longer distance services from Liverpool via Chester into Wales, but the signalling and layout is going to have to be tackled at Chester. It’s already very inflexible for movements at the Eastern end where trains out of 5 clash with the through roads. Without seeing the pre-Chester PSB layout, I’ll bet there was far more flexibility in and out.

 

[cle]

I was thinking on those lines - quite a lot more activity (4 extra tph in and outbound) - and I could foresee more in future headed through to North Wales (inc Wrexham) plus another frequency to Liverpool. The Liverpool-Cardiff people discuss could well run this way too.
Interesting times, but will need some attention for sure.

I'd push the wires issue here too, but the route to Crewe is supposedly very difficult and if all of these other services are going to be running through, there is less which would be covered off in full.

 

[driver_m]

I was thinking on those lines - quite a lot more activity (4 extra tph in and outbound) - and I could foresee more in future headed through to North Wales (inc Wrexham) plus another frequency to Liverpool. The Liverpool-Cardiff people discuss could well run this way too.
Interesting times, but will need some attention for sure.

I'd push the wires issue here too, but the route to Crewe is supposedly very difficult and if all of these other services are going to be running through, there is less which would be covered off in full.

There is a crazy number of bridges that would need redoing. The track has already been lowered at many of them so that’s not an option. Many of them are farm crossings but the awkward one will always be Christleton Tunnel with the canal going over the line. Certainly not impossible, but a headache definitely.

 

[Chester1]

There is a crazy number of bridges that would need redoing. The track has already been lowered at many of them so that’s not an option. Many of them are farm crossings but the awkward one will always be Christleton Tunnel with the canal going over the line. Certainly not impossible, but a headache definitely.

Some of the bridges are the originals and are listed too. Knocking down one Grade 2 listed building is possible but its highly unlikely NR would be allowed to demolish several so they would have to be lifted by a substantial amount. It would be a very expensive project. Chester-Warrington/Runcorn would have a better business case but at the cost of long distance services being replaced by Chester-Manchester/Liverpool EMUs. Not going to happen any time soon!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Cool, thanks for the info.
Didn’t know about the Wrexham, is that additional or combining a service?
Still, a good precedent for beyond Chester service. Hope it is popular. I wonder if Wrexham-Manchester has much demand also. Can’t see Calder/Leeds to North Wales as worthwhile for through journeys, but Liverpool 100%.

The Wrexham extension in the peaks is using the same 2 units as the main Chester-Liverpool shuttle.
So gaps open up in the service as a result, hence the missing 1830 Chester-Liverpool.
TfW obviously wanted to include Wrexham In the startup for all sorts of reasons.
Wrexham-Liverpool (and Manchester for that matter) is one of the key commuter "missing links" in the area.
The westbound Leeds-Chester connects quite well with Wrexham/Coast, but eastbound the Leeds leaves Chester just as the Wrexham/Coast services hove into view.

 

[Glenn1969]

RTT shows a connection of 6 to 9 minutes from the Coast train to the Leeds train at Chester until mid afternoon. Is that a viable connection. The last train to Leeds has a 30 minute connection out of a Llandudno service but only 3 minutes from the Holyhead train. I THINK that means day trips to the Coast are a reasonable proposition from Calder Valley Stations

 

[ainsworth74]

RTT shows a connection of 6 to 9 minutes from the Coast train to the Leeds train at Chester until mid afternoon. Is that a viable connection.

Minimum interchange time is 5 minutes so all those would be valid connections (i.e. you'd be entitled to assistance in the event of delays). Chester station isn't that large so those connections would be fine for the vast majority of passengers. Though granny Ethel with her heavy suitcase might struggle.

 

[Llandudno]

Presumably most East bound connections at Chester will be cross-Platform, or into the two adjacent Bay platforms so footbridge/lift not required.

Some better signage and clearer announcements would help also?

 

[splashoutradio]

Due to a lack of a single timetable for the new Chester - Leeds services, I've been asked to compile one.
On the off chance that is of use to someone, here it is: http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/May19/timetable.php?table=AP

 

[cle]

Plus most day trippers would be coming from Llandudno or points east. Although Bangor has a lot of demand and a big uni, plus the Caernarfon trippers.

How do the ferries feed in?

 

[mspljd1990]

Northern 158s are rare west of Manchester but common on the Calder Valley routes.
158s are of course not unusual between Manchester (south side) and Chester on TfW services, mixed in with the 175s.
The usual mix of Northern trains at Chester is 142/150 with the odd 156.

That's true, but they seem to be the DMU of choice for long distance routes by Northern.

 

[Along the bay]

Saw a pair of 158s on platform 5 at Chester this mourning I'm guessing their on driver training for this route.

 

[Along the bay]

Saw a pair of 158s on platform 5 at Chester this mourning I'm guessing their on driver training for this route.

In northern livery of course

 

[cle]

The Ellesmere Port thing is irritating - what are the obligations, and could these not be as extras (with various stock being released) - so as not to remove important peak services from Chester?

 

[mrcaa]

The Ellesmere Port thing is irritating - what are the obligations, and could these not be as extras (with various stock being released) - so as not to remove important peak services from Chester?

It looks like they just think Chester's got enough with the extra half-hour TfW services at 07:12 and 17:15 returning. It is annoying though, especially as there's so little parking at Helsby which is now going to be the only stop that all Northern and TfW services stop at (including the new Liverpool services). If people catch on it's going to be hell around that station as they haven't even introduced any parking charges yet.

 

[mrcaa]

Looks like cheap single tickets have just been released. £6 Chester to Manchester Victoria and £9.50 Chester to Leeds. Unfortunately if you're doing a return and have to use another TOC it jumps up to the usual £19. The Ellesmere Port one is more expensive than the Chester one at £23.60 for a return and no cheap advances.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks like cheap single tickets have just been released. £6 Chester to Manchester Victoria and £9.50 Chester to Leeds. Unfortunately if you're doing a return and have to use another TOC it jumps up to the usual £19. The Ellesmere Port one is more expensive than the Chester one at £23.60 for a return and no cheap advances.

£6 is the cheapest current Northern advance Chester-Manchester via Northwich.
You'd expect some commonality between the fares Northern charge on its two routes.
The higher fare is the TfW Any Permitted.
The £23.60 EPort to Manchester is the current Anytime Any Permitted fare set by, oddly, TPE.
The direct trains are all peak of course (no off-peak times, I haven't checked if you can go via Chester/Liverpool off-peak).
[It appears you can go via Liverpool and Merseyrail for this, but not via Chester].

Chester-Leeds fares (Any Permitted) are all set by TPE at the moment, so you'd expect some lower Northern only fares for the new service.
TfW might also wade in with "TfW and Connections" tickets as well.
Virgin might also do VT and Connections via Warrington (currently just on TfW).

Edit: I see there's a £43.50 Anytime Short Return (Northern Only) Chester-Leeds.
It is also valid via Northwich, but you make your own way between Pic and Vic as the only trains are TPE.
That's against the £51.20 Off Peak Return Any Permitted (after 0900 Mon-Fri), or £70.40 Anytime Return.

On the date I was looking at (22 May), Northern advances were available on most direct trains at £9.50 each way.
There are no cheap advances to Ellesmere Port, but Leeds-Helsby is only £8 on the EPort direct train (£5 from Victoria) and then it's only £3.90 single on to ELP.

Just checking Chester advances to/from Calder Valley stations: Rochdale is £8.50, Todmorden is £9, Halifax/Bradford are £9.50 same as Leeds.
Victoria is £6, Newton le Willows/Warrington £3.
There don't appear to be any cheap fares from west of Chester.

 

[Deerfold]

Looks like cheap single tickets have just been released. £6 Chester to Manchester Victoria and £9.50 Chester to Leeds. Unfortunately if you're doing a return and have to use another TOC it jumps up to the usual £19. The Ellesmere Port one is more expensive than the Chester one at £23.60 for a return and no cheap advances.

There were some advances mentioned a couple of weeks ago in this thread, but there were none from Chester to east of Hebden Bridge then.

 

[mrcaa]

Parking paypoints now installed (though not yet in operation) at Helsby station. Didn’t spot any signs with the tariffs yet.

 

[geoffk]

Walk up Northern Only tickets to Chester from various destinations will apparently be made available to complement the introduction of these new services. Some Advance tickets for the new service are already on sale.

It's time to call a halt to the proliferation of single operator tickets and to change the franchising system to outlaw it. We have a rail network, and this practice just undermines it. In the early years of privatisation, the new train companies began to see each other as competitors but this mindset was supposed to have changed. I'm referring to walk-up single and return and rover-type tickets, not advance purchase obviously, nor special offers like Club 55. What does everyone think? We've had the debate on here about Merseyside Saveaway and Daysaver tickets, one a PTE ticket, the other operator-specific which is a few pence cheaper, and just confuses the would-be traveller.

 

[Mathew S]

It's time to call a halt to the proliferation of single operator tickets and to change the franchising system to outlaw it. We have a rail network, and this practice just undermines it. In the early years of privatisation, the new train companies began to see each other as competitors but this mindset was supposed to have changed. I'm referring to walk-up single and return and rover-type tickets, not advance purchase obviously, nor special offers like Club 55. What does everyone think? We've had the debate on here about Merseyside Saveaway and Daysaver tickets, one a PTE ticket, the other operator-specific which is a few pence cheaper, and just confuses the would-be traveller.

You asked what other people think, and frankly I can't think of anything worse. Operator-specific tickets (e.g. LNR tickets from Crewe to London) represent outstanding value and are one of the few things that actually works about competition on the railway. More, far more, operator competition is what I want to see, not less. I'd like to see a minimum of two operators on every long distance route, with operator specific tickets mandatory for every available fare (in addition to a regulated price, any-operator ticket). That would force operators to compete on price, and end the monopoly of companies like VTWC who can charge extortionate amounts for flexible tickets.