TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

[daodao]

A significant reason for diverting TPE North trains via Victoria to both Liverpool and the Airport was precisely to avoid having trains from the Guide Bridge direction crossing the entire throat to get to 13/14 or the Airport route. It would also lead to a slower journey time between Leeds and Manchester. Running them via the Ordsall Chord makes sense, it's just that there are too many other services on both the Castlefield and Airport lines at the moment for it to be consistently reliable.

I agree with diverting Leeds-Manchester express trains on the Standedge route via Victoria to Liverpool to avoid having trains from the Guide Bridge direction crossing the entire throat to get to platforms 13/14. However, in my view, the disruption and unnecessary occupation of key paths caused by running trains from the Standedge route via Victoria, the Ordsall chord and platforms 13/14 to the Airport is greater than that caused by reversing them in Piccadilly platform 4 (one per hour in each direction) and then running them direct to the Airport. The paths from Victoria to platforms 13/14 via the Ordsall chord would be better used by trains from the Rochdale direction, as suggested in post 807 above.

 

[Philip]

Are any Scotland WCML services still down for 185s now in the new timetable, or is it possible they will still cover for 350s in shortages?

 

[Andyh82]

Wasn’t some sort of flyover across the Piccadilly throat once an option?

I’m increasingly thinking this would have been the way to go, as the TPE service is now just a complicated mess with the split Manchester stations.

Victoria has 4 departures, but 2 of them also serve Piccadilly so will be full before it gets there and the other 2 come from Liverpool so will also be heavilly loaded.

Piccadilly has 4 departures, but with 2 of them you have to use Platform 14 and then do a tour of Manchester, and due to this tour they end up in Huddersfield not long before the other two do that depart 15 mins later. Of those other two one is the stopper.

I also think leisure travellers still use Piccadilly as it was the station to use for many years, so end up having a choice of all the departures that are inferior in one way or another.

 

[Chester1]

Wasn’t some sort of flyover across the Piccadilly throat once an option?

I’m increasingly thinking this would have been the way to go, as the TPE service is now just a complicated mess with the split Manchester stations.

Victoria has 4 departures, but 2 of them also serve Piccadilly so will be full before it gets there and the other 2 come from Liverpool so will also be heavilly loaded.

Piccadilly has 4 departures, but with 2 of them you have to use Platform 14 and then do a tour of Manchester, and due to this tour they end up in Huddersfield not long before the other two do that depart 15 mins later. Of those other two one is the stopper.

I also think leisure travellers still use Piccadilly as it was the station to use for many years, so end up having a choice of all the departures that are inferior in one way or another.

The Ardwick flyover would be about £250m and would mean heavier reliance on the through platforms at Piccadilly. It would link the line from Ardwick with the through platforms allowing services from Guide Bridge and Bredbury to go to the Castlefield corridor. Its would only make sense if the plans to build platforms 15 and 16 and rebuild Oxford Road happen. It would only allow the Liverpool-Scarborough service to be diverted. Airport-Leeds services would have to go via the chord or reverse across the throat at Piccadilly.

 

[VT 390]

The Ardwick flyover would be about £250m and would mean heavier reliance on the through platforms at Piccadilly. It would link the line from Ardwick with the through platforms allowing services from Guide Bridge and Bredbury to go to the Castlefield corridor. Its would only make sense if the plans to build platforms 15 and 16 and rebuild Oxford Road happen. It would only allow the Liverpool-Scarborough service to be diverted. Airport-Leeds services would have to go via the chord or reverse across the throat at Piccadilly.

If it were to happen I think it should be kept just for local services as I think the Liverpool to Scarborough service is better via Victoria as it allows a half hourly fast service from Manchester to Liverpool as well as having a faster overall journey time, especially for Leeds to Liverpool journeys. Perhaps in the future if a High Speed route is built from Manchester to Liverpool then this could change.

 

[30907]

There are basically 2 possibilities with Leeds-Manchester, assuming that a core 15-minute service is needed (which I think it is - gone are the days of 1tph!):
1. 4tph to Vic - as now (quicker) - in which case Airport becomes a problem (and Leeds-Airport needs to be half hourly not hourly)
2. 4tph to Picc - as recently - in which case Liverpool is a big problem and Airport not ideal anyway.
3. Split the 4 between Picc and Vic - non-starter, because you lose the selling point of 4tph from Manchester.

One option I have mulled over is to use the present 6tph as follows:
4tph to Vic (and beyond - but where, apart from LIV?)
2tph (as now) to Picc, reversing and continuing to Airport, between them serving stations Stalybridge-Slaithwaite but then running fast(ish) to Leeds (and York?) . I'm assuming that Airport traffic isn't too sensitive to overall journey time.
can't say that's a better solution, and it's less economical of resources (needing extra units to work the Hudds-LDS stoppers and leaving the Castlefield Curve rather light on trains) - but it might at least be possible.


Another possibility might be an S-Bahn type service 4tph Airport-Vic, continuing to (say) Rochdale (bimode!)/Stalybridge, abandoning Leeds-Airport - but given that Leeds-Airport has been going longer than most of the longer distance Airport services, that's unrealistic.

In short, I'm not convinced there's a better solution!

 

[Glenn1969]

Bradford and Rochdale are supposed to get an Airport service. Are they more worthy of one than Barrow and Windermere? If they are the Barrow/Windermere DMUs should be diverted to and terminate at Victoria for connections and the through path should be diverted to Rochdale and beyond.

Just a thought- don't shoot me for airing it!

 

[VT 390]

There are basically 2 possibilities with Leeds-Manchester, assuming that a core 15-minute service is needed (which I think it is - gone are the days of 1tph!):
1. 4tph to Vic - as now (quicker) - in which case Airport becomes a problem (and Leeds-Airport needs to be half hourly not hourly)
2. 4tph to Picc - as recently - in which case Liverpool is a big problem and Airport not ideal anyway.
3. Split the 4 between Picc and Vic - non-starter, because you lose the selling point of 4tph from Manchester.

One option I have mulled over is to use the present 6tph as follows:
4tph to Vic (and beyond - but where, apart from LIV?)
2tph (as now) to Picc, reversing and continuing to Airport, between them serving stations Stalybridge-Slaithwaite but then running fast(ish) to Leeds (and York?) . I'm assuming that Airport traffic isn't too sensitive to overall journey time.
can't say that's a better solution, and it's less economical of resources (needing extra units to work the Hudds-LDS stoppers and leaving the Castlefield Curve rather light on trains) - but it might at least be possible.


Another possibility might be an S-Bahn type service 4tph Airport-Vic, continuing to (say) Rochdale (bimode!)/Stalybridge, abandoning Leeds-Airport - but given that Leeds-Airport has been going longer than most of the longer distance Airport services, that's unrealistic.

In short, I'm not convinced there's a better solution!

How is splitting the service between the 2 main Manchester stations bad as it gives people more options depending which part of Manchester they want?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Starts as bi-hourly, with the others being extended at a future timetable change. Presumably not enough 802s expected in traffic to go hourly straight away.

There are also problems with the power supply north of York/Newcastle, as it can't support all the planned electric services by LNER, TPE and First.
Roger Ford has a list of all the work NR needs to do to boost the power supply in June Modern Railways.
It may be 2021 before they can all run on electric.

 

[MetroCar4058]

How is splitting the service between the 2 main Manchester stations bad as it gives people more options depending which part of Manchester they want?

I don’t really understand this argument or need to go to Pic or Vic. They are both a relatively equal distance from the key parts of the city centre. It’s only a 5 minute walk to Pic Gardens. The only argument I can see with merit is the interchange to services.

If people are that bothered/can’t walk just get the tram. Perhaps a solution could be to but a Manchester City zone rail ticket?


I always thought a better option than all TPE going to airport was a 15 minute service calling at all Styal line stations to Victoria, where Newcastle and Middlesbrough services could terminate; these trains could then shunt out to Brewers Junction if the platforms were needed. ATW could also be diverted to Victoria to terminate.

Another option could be that all TPE trains stop at a couple of the Styal line stations eg Mauldeth Road & East Didsbury or Burnage & Gatley. This could kill some of the turn around time off at the Airport as well as actually making that line useful to commuters!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don’t really understand this argument or need to go to Pic or Vic. They are both a relatively equal distance from the key parts of the city centre. It’s only a 5 minute walk to Pic Gardens. The only argument I can see with merit is the interchange to services.

If people are that bothered/can’t walk just get the tram. Perhaps a solution could be to but a Manchester City zone rail ticket?


I always thought a better option than all TPE going to airport was a 15 minute service calling at all Styal line stations to Victoria, where Newcastle and Middlesbrough services could terminate; these trains could then shunt out to Brewers Junction if the platforms were needed. ATW could also be diverted to Victoria to terminate.

Another option could be that all TPE trains stop at a couple of the Styal line stations eg Mauldeth Road & East Didsbury or Burnage & Gatley. This could kill some of the turn around time off at the Airport as well as actually making that line useful to commuters!

If I'm in Huddersfield and going shopping in Manchester I prefer to get to Victoria, but if I'm travelling onwards I want Piccadilly. The issue is for people who are maybe meeting others in the city and don't want to send their friends on a wild goose chase around the city!

But it is a bit of a "First World Problem"!

 

[Spartacus]

Apart from obvious requirements of connections, I think for most it's just a case of people being more familiar with going into Pic, most people travelling now will have spent most of their travelling life going into Pic, and to be fair for most of that time Pic was the station they'd have wanted to arrive at, but I think in the last 15 years with the redevelopment of the Arndale area the focus has moved back north again near to Vic.

 

[Class 170101]

This will leave no platform available for the Northern Blackpool (xx32-xx39) and Liverpool (xx28-xx50) trains, not to mention the TfW Llandudno (xx10-xx36).

Quarts into pint pots.... Something will have to give.

I thought TfW services were going to be diverted to Manchester Victoria and that they didn't have rights to run to the Airport anyway.

 

[Greybeard33]

I thought TfW services were going to be diverted to Manchester Victoria and that they didn't have rights to run to the Airport anyway.

Not according to TfW:

Train service improvements include:
...
Revising timetables in December 2022 to introduce... direct services between Manchester Airport and Bangor.

https://tfw.gov.wales/whats-happening-north-wales

 

[Class 170101]

Not according to TfW:

https://tfw.gov.wales/whats-happening-north-wales

May or may not get Track Access Rights though.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It is rather silly for N Wales airport traffic to be routed via central Manchester at all, surely there is a case for improving direct links via Crewe or direct from Chester?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It is rather silly for N Wales airport traffic to be routed via central Manchester at all, surely there is a case for improving direct links via Crewe or direct from Chester?

This brings us back onto the debate of whether a shuttle is a better option than distant cities/regions all wanting their own dedicated Airport train. Clearly having a direct train to the UKs busiest regional airport is on the wishlist of chambers of commerce across the North and Midlands, but each actual airport train will carry only a handful of Airport passengers from the extremeties of the route. It'll carry dozens to Manchester city centre though. Without serving the city centre, the direct airport trains would make a huge loss.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Are any Scotland WCML services still down for 185s now in the new timetable, or is it possible they will still cover for 350s in shortages?

None booked....

But, currently a class 350 diagram has been replaced by a 185 yesterday, today and tomorrow (maybe longer) due to fatality damage that occurred on Saturday near Preston.

 

[Tim_UK]

Victoria has 4 departures, but 2 of them also serve Piccadilly so will be full before it gets there and the other 2 come from Liverpool so will also be heavilly loaded.

It is a bit more extreme than that:
2 of them come from the airport, so are almost full before they get to Piccadilly.
and then completely packed at Oxford road.

(based on my airport to Yorkshire trip yesterday)

My friend who travels on TPE through Victoria everyday says that you get more chance of a seat on Liverpool services. Airport always full.

 

[Yorkshireman16]

been told as from July 29th 1E23/25 Liverpool-Scarborough booked 68 and stock mk 5 not sure how true

 

[Greybeard33]

May or may not get Track Access Rights though.

The TfW 94th Supplementary Agreement, which can be downloaded from the Network Rail Sale of Access Rights page, extends the track access rights for the Llandudno and Chester to Airport services until December 2020.

However, the rights that traverse the Castlefield corridor (i.e. N Wales/Chester to Piccadilly/Airport) are downgraded from Firm Rights to Contingent Rights after December 2019. Not sure what the implications of that are.

 

[Glenn1969]

I guess it means services could be routed via Crewe to make way for another operator's Firm Rights (Northern for another new service maybe?)

 

[Chester1]

I guess it means services could be routed via Crewe to make way for another operator's Firm Rights (Northern for another new service maybe?)

No because it would reverse the much needed capacity increase this month when Northern extended Victoria-Leeds services to Chester. The alternative for TfW franchise bidders was Victoria (or Stalybridge if a lack of available platforms). If the contingent rights are revoked to help TPE then presumably that would be the fall back option.

 

[Glenn1969]

It will probably be Victoria then. Not sure how Stalybridge is an option

 

[Chester1]

It will probably be Victoria then. Not sure how Stalybridge is an option

As an extension from Victoria when there is insufficient platform availability. It would cause new pathing and platforming issues so would probably only be for a handful services.

 

[Glenn1969]

Would this train then terminate at Stalybridge>

 

[Chester1]

Would this train then terminate at Stalybridge>

Yes. I was a bit surprised too! It does make sense though if all Llandudno services are switched to Victoria. I regularly use the service and would be disadvantaged by a switch but lengthening TPE airport services while keeping a decent layover should take priority.

 

[Class 170101]

I think contingent rights means you are last on the graph if there are capacity constraints with no solutions available.

 

[Andyh82]

The catch is that:

Which means that there are simply not enough platforms at Manchester Airport, if the other services to the Airport continue unchanged after the December 2019 TT change.

For example, between xx35 each standard hour (arrival from Newcastle) and xx47 (departure to Middlesbrough) two of the four platforms will be fully occupied by TPE North trains (5-car 802 and 5-car Mk5A). The two other platforms will be needed by the TPE Cleethorpes service (6-car 185, xx25-xx53) and Scotland service (5-car 397, xx43-xx10). This will leave no platform available for the Northern Blackpool (xx32-xx39) and Liverpool (xx28-xx50) trains, not to mention the TfW Llandudno (xx10-xx36).

Quarts into pint pots.... Something will have to give.

How long are the platforms at Manchester Airport?

Are we saying now that the new stock can't enter service until at least December as there is literally not enough capacity at the airport within the current timetable?

 

[Greybeard33]

How long are the platforms at Manchester Airport?

All the Airport platforms are about 200m long.

Are we saying now that the new stock can't enter service until at least December as there is literally not enough capacity at the airport within the current timetable?

I believe the 397s could be squeezed in with a bit of juggling of platforms. The Mk5As and 802s could only be used under the current timetable if interworking of Middlesbrough and Newcastle diagrams was ended. That would reduce Airport turnaround times from 40 minutes back to 10 minutes, as in the chaotic May 2018 timetable.