Northern timetable changes May 2019

[Bertie the bus]

Although a bit rubbish if you want Micklefield or stations towards Leeds (as the Leeds - York stoppers don't call at Church Fenton).

I don't think there is a massive flow from Church Fenton - East Garforth. In fact, outside of the commuter peaks there isn't much of a flow from Church Fenton - anywhere. The huge improvement in Church Fenton services is just an rather pointless exercise in improving services that didn't need improving, presumably just for the PR.

 

[Glenn1969]

Church Fenton is I think the nearest railhead to Tadcaster- does that have any effect on station usage?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Not unless they walk from Tadcaster, no. Church Fenton has a tiny car park which is always full and I've never seen cars parked on the street nearby. I've used Church Fenton quite a lot and except for departures from Leeds or York timed between about 16:00 and 18:00 it isn't unusual to be the only person to alight.

 

[30907]

I don't think there is a massive flow from Church Fenton - East Garforth. In fact, outside of the commuter peaks there isn't much of a flow from Church Fenton - anywhere. The huge improvement in Church Fenton services is just an rather pointless exercise in improving services that didn't need improving, presumably just for the PR.

For the Leeds route, it was sorting out the timetable to cope with the disruption from May 2018; the requirement towards Leeds is 13tpd, but there is little to be gained from having some of the Blackpool trains skip the stop. There is no requirement for CHF to have trains to Micklefield etc, it just used to be the most convenient option.

 

[driver_m]

Quite surprised to poss a Northern 158 this morning at Golborne near Wigan. Was this just a Bank Holiday diversion or something a bit more regular? After all, I was on an unusual working too, taking a pendo to Wigan from Liverpool.

 

[Mathew S]

Quite surprised to poss a Northern 158 this morning at Golborne near Wigan. Was this just a Bank Holiday diversion or something a bit more regular? After all, I was on an unusual working too, taking a pendo to Wigan from Liverpool.

It will have been one of the Airport - Barrow/Windermere services I expect. They're 158s and use Chat Moss as far as Golborne/Parkside before turning north onto the WCML via Wigan.

If you were still on the Chat Moss, could also have been a Leeds - Chester.

 

[driver_m]

It will have been one of the Airport - Barrow/Windermere services I expect. They're 158s and use Chat Moss as far as Golborne/Parkside before turning north onto the WCML via Wigan.

If you were still on the Chat Moss, could also have been a Leeds - Chester.

No I’d left the Chat Moss. There was also a Leeds service sat at North Western. Good to see links across the North improving.

 

[Mathew S]

No I’d left the Chat Moss. There was also a Leeds service sat at North Western. Good to see links across the North improving.

Yep. Those Leeds services are hourly, though usually from Wigan Wallgate (having originated in Southport). It's a good service, fast into Manchester and then pretty competitive with TPE to Leeds as well.

And yeah, the 158 will have been a Windermere or a Barrow. They too will be a good service when (if) Northern employ enough drivers to actually run them reliably.

 

[DJH1971]

05:42 Wilmslow-Liverpool, 07:57 Liverpool-Man Vic etc, are booked DMU’s in the short term. Makes perfect sense to use them on that diagram and allows a 319 to do the Preston-Airport shuttle.

There are 14 323 diagrams at the moment.

A 323 will do a round trip to Wigan on a Saturday night.

Explains why there's a bit of an EMU famine on the Chat Moss lime at the moment.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think there is a massive flow from Church Fenton - East Garforth. In fact, outside of the commuter peaks there isn't much of a flow from Church Fenton - anywhere. The huge improvement in Church Fenton services is just an rather pointless exercise in improving services that didn't need improving, presumably just for the PR.

More likely the necessary way of meeting Church Fenton's Train Service Requirement. Which by coincidence (rather than design) happens to provide a fast service to shout about.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think there is a massive flow from Church Fenton - East Garforth. In fact, outside of the commuter peaks there isn't much of a flow from Church Fenton - anywhere. The huge improvement in Church Fenton services is just an rather pointless exercise in improving services that didn't need improving, presumably just for the PR.

Wrong. Plenty of people travel between Church Fenton and Leeds, and the previous lack of services between the two was a right pain. An hourly service is quite sensible.

 

[Tractor37]

I thought Castleford to York was a regular diversion for LNER and XC as well as TPE.

It's only a diversionary route for XC and TPE. No LNER crews have ever signed from Methley to Church Fenton.

 

[Bovverboy]

A bit of a misleading response there, on my part, with the benefit of hindsight. Yes, a four-car DMU set has been covering an EMU duty this week, but, conversely, a Class 319 has been doing the one Airport to Preston via Chat Moss duty, which is diagrammed for DMU. So, swings and roundabouts.

Do you know that the temporary Airport - Preston diagram is booked as a DMU, or are you assuming that because the workings are timed for a 158?

No, of course I don't know, it was an assumption/bad phraseology on my part, but it's academic, it doesn't upset the mathematics. The point is, a 319 is currently doing something it wouldn't have been doing had the full Barrow/Windermere service been introduced as intended.

 

[Bovverboy]

A 323 will do a round trip to Wigan on a Saturday night.

Do you have the times for this working, please? I might try to catch it tomorrow night. Thanks.

According to RTT, it's 2300 Lime Street to Wigan, back ECS to Allerton. Previous journey 2043 Wilmslow to Lime Street.

Does anyone know if a 323 actually worked the 2300 Lime Street - Wigan on Saturday night? RTT suggests it didn't, but I can't be sure, a lot of the quoted platform numbers seem suspect.

 

[Bovverboy]

Looks like there could be a bit of a reshuffle in the offing, given that other changes are planned for 1 July. It certainly seems odd that a 323 should be replaced by a DMU when the 323s are pretty well the only type of train which Northern runs in the North West that is not currently in short supply.

It may tie-in with the start of 323 repainting and PRM mods.

I haven't come across any evidence that says the 323s are going to be staying with Northern.

 

[Bovverboy]

05:42 Wilmslow-Liverpool, 07:57 Liverpool-Man Vic etc, are booked DMU’s in the short term. Makes perfect sense to use them on that diagram and allows a 319 to do the Preston-Airport shuttle.

There's no ECS move from Newton Heath booked for tomorrow 29/5, the stock for the 0542 is booked to come from Stockport CMD. It's not obvious what's happening, we may be back to a 319, or the DMU set might be stabling overnight at Stockport CMD. We must wait and see.

 

[Bovverboy]

I'm sure there is an explanation to this but I have no idea so can anyone tell me why 2C71 1439 Lancaster to Morecambe skips Bare Lane on the way to Morecambe but stops there on the return journey?

I'm not entirely sure why this service is even running as there is a train to Morecambe(which comes from Leeds) around 25 mins earlier so it will most likely have barely any passengers on it, just seems wasted mileage too me?

The two things are related - the 1439 has to wait for the return of the previous train at Morecambe South Jn. Must then skip Bare Lane to make the time back.

Wow. It sounds rather nonsensical too me seeing as the train then sits in Morecambe for around 20 mins before heading back out to Lancaster in anycase. Could either timed the service to depart 2 mins later(or some other time) or better still, not run it at all seeing as its not a peak train and the loadings on this service must be quite minimal.

RTT is currently showing 2C71 as calling at Bare Lane, as are all other services to/from Morecambe.

 

[TheGrew]

05:42 Wilmslow-Liverpool, 07:57 Liverpool-Man Vic etc, are booked DMU’s in the short term. Makes perfect sense to use them on that diagram and allows a 319 to do the Preston-Airport shuttle.

There are 14 323 diagrams at the moment.

A 323 will do a round trip to Wigan on a Saturday night.

Any idea how roughly how long they are booked to be DMUs? I often get the 7:57 to work and have been groaning when a 319 is swapped out for the 142+150 combo. In my experience this combo is also struggling to keep to time: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y67571/2019/05/28 and http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y67571/2019/05/21 as two examples.

 

[Paul_10]

RTT is currently showing 2C71 as calling at Bare Lane, as are all other services to/from Morecambe.

Yep been amended since yesterday although I'm not sure if any actually didn't stop at Bare Lane during the first week of the TT change although the timings would suggested it didn't stop at Bare.

 

[HotelNovember]

Does anyone know if a 323 actually worked the 2300 Lime Street - Wigan on Saturday night? RTT suggests it didn't, but I can't be sure, a lot of the quoted platform numbers seem suspect.

23:00 won’t be a 323. 19:45 Wigan and back that will be a 323.

 

[Clip]

Possibly been mentioned but the 0712 from Chorley to Blackpool North now has an extended journey tiem of about 10 mins. Including 5 mins sat at Buckshaw, 2-3 mins at Euxton junction and 2-3 minutes at Preston.

That was well worthe money spent on it all

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69130/2019/05/28/advanced

 

[prod_pep]

23:00 won’t be a 323. 19:45 Wigan and back that will be a 323.

Thanks for this. Didn't think it would be the 2300 as the previous poster did clearly say 'round trip'.

Meanwhile, 156428 was one of today's designated 319 fillers, working the 1528 LIV-CRE.

Edit: the 1945 shows on RTT as cancelled last Saturday so no 323 to Wigan yet.

 

[WatcherZero]

I haven't come across any evidence that says the 323s are going to be staying with Northern.

No evidence but rumour Northern is close to signing a deal for retaining its 323 and taking on all LM 323's as well and releasing some 319 back to Porterbrook in return who will be using them for bi-mode conversion (since they are the better examples).

Irony that Northern bidders were refused 323's because the ROSCO was hoping to have the entire fleet taken on by West Midland and now they are going to have a single operator, but it will be Northern.

Frankly the 319 performance and reliability has just not met the demands of the northern environment and service patterns and the 323 are much better performing.

 

[Bovverboy]

323’s will be spreading their wings from the new TT a bit more.

They won't be going anywhere they don't go at present.

They will - even if it’s just for one round trip.

A 323 will do a round trip to Wigan on a Saturday night.

Do you have the times for this working, please? I might try to catch it tomorrow night. Thanks.

According to RTT, it's 2300 Lime Street to Wigan, back ECS to Allerton. Previous journey 2043 Wilmslow to Lime Street.

23:00 won’t be a 323. 19:45 Wigan and back that will be a 323.

You've been very, very, slow indeed coming up with this information. First of all you wouldn't say where the 323s were going to be 'spreading their wings' to, then when you did you wouldn't say which journey they were going to be operating (even when asked by prod_pep) and you didn't raise any objection when I suggested it might be the 2300 journey ex-Lime Street. Now that the first Saturday of the new timetable has gone (and the 1945 journey didn't actually operate) you're saying that the relevant journey is the 1945.

Okay, if 323s are going to be doing the 1945 Lime Street to Wigan (on a Saturday night), what's the preceding journey on the diagram?

 

[Bovverboy]

A 323 will do a round trip to Wigan on a Saturday night.

23:00 won’t be a 323. 19:45 Wigan and back that will be a 323.

Thanks for this. Didn't think it would be the 2300 as the previous poster did clearly say 'round trip'.

It was the same poster!

 

[HotelNovember]

You've been very, very, slow indeed coming up with this information. First of all you wouldn't say where the 323s were going to be 'spreading their wings' to, then when you did you wouldn't say which journey they were going to be operating (even when asked by prod_pep) and you didn't raise any objection when I suggested it might be the 2300 journey ex-Lime Street. Now that the first Saturday of the new timetable has gone (and the 1945 journey didn't actually operate) you're saying that the relevant journey is the 1945.

Okay, if 323s are going to be doing the 1945 Lime Street to Wigan (on a Saturday night), what's the preceding journey on the diagram?

17:16 Crewe-Liverpool, then after the 1945 and back, goes to Allerton.

 

[Chester1]

No evidence but rumour Northern is close to signing a deal for retaining its 323 and taking on all LM 323's as well and releasing some 319 back to Porterbrook in return who will be using them for bi-mode conversion (since they are the better examples).

Irony that Northern bidders were refused 323's because the ROSCO was hoping to have the entire fleet taken on by West Midland and now they are going to have a single operator, but it will be Northern.

Frankly the 319 performance and reliability has just not met the demands of the northern environment and service patterns and the 323 are much better performing.

The 17 Northern 323s only stayed past their lease end because of the delay of 331s. If you are right it would mean that in the long term Northern would be swapping 24 x 319s for 43 x 323s! I would like to see that much improvement in quality and capacity but I will believe it when I see it.

 

[Greybeard33]

The 17 Northern 323s only stayed past their lease end because of the delay of 331s. If you are right it would mean that in the long term Northern would be swapping 24 x 319s for 43 x 323s! I would like to see that much improvement in quality and capacity but I will believe it when I see it.

Northern's original long term plan, according to the franchise agreement, was to release 5 of the 32*319s once all the 331s are in service, retaining 27*319s until the end of the franchise. 8 of those are now being converted to 769s, which would mean 19*319s + 8*768s long term.

DfT counts capacity in carriages not units, so 26*3-car 323s (78 vehicles) would be needed to replace 19*4-car 319s (76 vehicles). So if Northern acquired WMT's 26*323s (which are already being refurbished and receiving PRM mods) that would provide equivalent capacity to the 319s. Northern's current 323 fleet could then go into storage without any need to spend money refurbishing them.

However, if the 769s are also to be replaced by 323s long term (assuming more electrification in CP6), 36*3-car 323s would be needed in total to provide the same number of vehicles (108) as 27*4-car 319s + 769s. In which case it might make sense for Northern to have the entire fleet of 43*323s, with the extra 7 units enabling more 6-car formations in the peaks.

 

[Puffing Devil]

No evidence but rumour Northern is close to signing a deal for retaining its 323 and taking on all LM 323's as well and releasing some 319 back to Porterbrook in return who will be using them for bi-mode conversion (since they are the better examples).

Irony that Northern bidders were refused 323's because the ROSCO was hoping to have the entire fleet taken on by West Midland and now they are going to have a single operator, but it will be Northern.

Frankly the 319 performance and reliability has just not met the demands of the northern environment and service patterns and the 323 are much better performing.

I hope the rumour is true - the 319s are the same age as the 323 but appear to have had a much harder life, plus they are uncomfortable and slow.

 

[DJH1971]

I hope the rumour is true - the 319s are the same age as the 323 but appear to have had a much harder life, plus they are uncomfortable and slow.

I also heard this off a Northern employee this morning on a train, who said Northern are planning to get the 323's, whilst the 319/3's will be going to Wales. He said the plans were still under wraps.