Are trams a good substitute for 'proper' trains

[radamfi]

Manchester has converted more live rail into trams than anywhere else
I think the only other live railway converted was the addiscombe branch for Croydon Tramlink.
Unless you count Nottingham Hucknall ranch - but the railway is still there - just single track.

Wimbledon to West Croydon was a BR/National Rail service.
If you are counting Tyne & Wear Metro, that was mostly converted from BR lines.

 

[Ken H]

Wimbledon to West Croydon was a BR/National Rail service.
If you are counting Tyne & Wear Metro, that was mostly converted from BR lines.

Forgot wimbledon-west croydon...

Is the T&W metro a tramway? I would say its a railway running trains. High level carriage floors, signalling, no street running.

 

[VT 390]

Manchester has converted more live rail into trams than anywhere else
I think the only other live railway converted was the addiscombe branch for Croydon Tramlink.
Unless you count Nottingham Hucknall ranch - but the railway is still there - just single track.

Did the West Midlands Metro/Midland Metro not take over train services between Wolverhampton and Bimringham or ha the line closed before then?

 

[Ken H]

Did the West Midlands Metro/Midland Metro not take over train services between Wolverhampton and Bimringham or ha the line closed before then?

closed long ago. Twas a 4 track railway. now the tram has 2 tracks and the re-opened railway the other two.

 

[edwin_m]

closed long ago. Twas a 4 track railway. now the tram has 2 tracks and the re-opened railway the other two.

Only between Snow Hill and The Hawthorns, where the line towards Smethwick (re-opened a few years before Metro) diverged from the former Wolverhampton line (now the Metro) which continued as double track. I think the only bit that qualifies as a live railway converted for use by trams is the former Platform 4 at Snow Hill, now vacated by the tram extension to New Street and likely to be restored to heavy rail use at some point.

 

[radamfi]

Is the T&W metro a tramway? I would say its a railway running trains. High level carriage floors, signalling, no street running.

It is light rail, and many of the issues concerning Metrolink also apply here, for example separation of ticketing from National Rail, higher frequency, more frequent stops etc.

 

[Ken H]

It is light rail, and many of the issues concerning Metrolink also apply here, for example separation of ticketing from National Rail, higher frequency, more frequent stops etc.

how hard would it be to sell tickets from and to tramways/light rail. And indeed buses. There are TfL/BR tickets, some from well outside the south east.

 

[edwin_m]

Plusbus covers trams at Birmingham/Wolverhampton (entire route from either end), Blackpool (not all the way to Fleetwood), Edinburgh (not Airport), Nottingham (all) and Sheffield (all including tram-train). I expect the lack of fully comprehensive through ticketing to all the tram networks is a symptom of the British disease of seeing public transport as a series of routes rather than a network.

 

[WatcherZero]

Conversion to tram saved the Oldham Loop line, it was slated by BR to be closed when life expired as renewing the infrastructure wasn't seen as financially viable and was put forward by them as a candidate for the initial phase 1 lines.

Conversion doubled passenger numbers overnight and within 5 years patronage was five times the level of the previous heavy rail service (6.1m versus 1.2m).

 

[yorksrob]

Conversion to tram saved the Oldham Loop line, it was slated by BR to be closed when life expired as renewing the infrastructure wasn't seen as financially viable and was put forward by them as a candidate for the initial phase 1 lines.

Conversion doubled passenger numbers overnight and within 5 years patronage was five times the level of the previous heavy rail service (6.1m versus 1.2m).

The Oldham loop wasn't converted until over a decade after BR disappeared, so whatever closure plans it might have had aren't really relevant to its future at that time.

 

[WatcherZero]

First mooted by BR in the 80's conversion had been planned since the 90's with development work undertaken through the late 90's and was greenlit in 2000 before being paused in 2004 and then greenlit again in 2006.

In fact before it was known as phase 3 it was called Metrolink 2000 because they hoped to open it in the year 2000.

 

[yorksrob]

On the other hand, one only has to look at the Aire Valley lines, which were also slated for closure in the 80's, to see how a route could be transformed as a conventional railway.

 

[radamfi]

how hard would it be to sell tickets from and to tramways/light rail. And indeed buses. There are TfL/BR tickets, some from well outside the south east.

People on this thread have mostly discussed issues with travelling long distance with a tram at the end of the journey, but I would say that it is more critical to have fully integrated fares for trips within the urban area. So you use buses, trams and National Rail freely as part of a single journey without worrying about the cost of changing modes. This is easily achieved in most urban areas in Europe and even in North America, which Brits look down on when it comes to public transport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand, one only has to look at the Aire Valley lines, which were also slated for closure in the 80's, to see how a route could be transformed as a conventional railway.

Or Merseyrail. Or London Overground.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If SELNEC had been able to secure the funding for the Vic-Picc tunnel we might be having a very different conversation.

On the other hand, one only has to look at the Aire Valley lines, which were also slated for closure in the 80's, to see how a route could be transformed as a conventional railway.

Comparing apples and pears. Manchester-Oldham is about the same distance in miles as Shipley-Leeds. From Keighley or Skipton it's very definitely not an inner-urban system.

But look at Leeds' traffic to see how it's crying out for a light rail system.

Or London Overground.

LO is good in parts, but in other parts less so. The Watford DC lines service is actually pretty poor at 3tph, far worse than any of the Metrolink lines.

Inner-urban lines are often better suited as light rail. Compare the old West Croydon-Wimbledon train to the Tramlink. It's night and day.

Fact is the Oldham Loop train service was *dire* and several stations were very inconveniently sited. Mumps was a long- and intimidating at night- walk from the town centre. Metrolink blows it out of the water.

Not every line is suitable for conversion to light rail, but Oldham and Bury have got a much better service than they had with heavy rail.

 

[Busaholic]

Or Merseyrail. Or London Overground.

The great success story of London Overground is basically the old East London Line, as extended over Southern metals, but it wouldn't have happened without the Jubilee Line's extension into S.E. and E. London and, to a lesser extent, the Docklands Light Railway. Needless to say, it would have been even less likely to succeed without the creation of Canary Wharf and the surrounding monoliths. Frankly, if the ELL had been taken over by a battery of horses and traps it would have been an overnight success if that had been the only available transport to the area!

 

[yorksrob]

Comparing apples and pears. Manchester-Oldham is about the same distance in miles as Shipley-Leeds. From Keighley or Skipton it's very definitely not an inner-urban system.

But look at Leeds' traffic to see how it's crying out for a light rail system.
.

Leeds might well be crying out for a light rail system, but not at the expense of our heavy rail network.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Leeds might well be crying out for a light rail system, but not at the expense of our heavy rail network.

There isn't an inner-urban rail network in Leeds, so there's not much risk of that.

 

[Randomer]

Arguably Leeds lost some of the inter urban stations that made up its heavy rail commuter system back in the 1960's to competition from buses and a general decline in passenger numbers which are now being looked at in terms of a light rail system.

E.g. either of the Armley stations, Holbeck or Beeston could not be easily reinstated as heavy rail stations without adversely effecting journey times on already busy lines but are already being looked at for future light rail routes (as unlikely as I think they are to happen.)

 

[yorksrob]

There isn't an inner-urban rail network in Leeds, so there's not much risk of that.

I'd hardly call the Oldham loop "inner urban". Certainly not the Atherton or Warrington lines.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd hardly call the Oldham loop "inner urban".

Course it is, a short line with frequent stops in a completely urban area. It's only 7 miles from Oldham to Victoria, you talk like it's in the next county!

The Atherton line isn't anywhere near as cut and dried, although again it's a relatively short self-contained line and you only have to look at the success of the Leigh busway (including from Atherton!) to see what can be achieved with the right service.

 

[yorksrob]

The Atherton line isn't anywhere near as cut and dried, although again it's a relatively short self-contained line and you only have to look at the success of the Leigh busway (including from Atherton!) to see what can be achieved with the right service.

Well, apart from the fact that it's neither short nor self contained.

The Leigh busway does well because there's nowt else. Have you seen how long that busway takes to get from Atherton to Manchester BTW? A hell of a lot longer than the train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

FWIW I think Atherton is a change too much, although it's not that outlandish. The Atherton line didn't even get a Sunday service until 2011 and the service at places like Hag Fold is still pretty rubbish.

Trams and light rail is great in its place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW I think Atherton is a change too much, although it's not that outlandish. The Atherton line didn't even get a Sunday service until 2011 and the service at places like Hag Fold is still pretty rubbish.

Trams and light rail is great in its place.

With the wires up (be they tram wires or 25kV) they could move to all trains serving all stations on a metro style service (a la Merseyrail) and solve that. The main issue is that the DMUs presently used are glacially slow.

 

[yorksrob]

If there are to be wires on the Atherton line, they should be full electrification wires. The line already has a decent interval service, and many trains are double units, so it would be ideally suited to four carriage electrics.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there are to be wires on the Atherton line, they should be full electrification wires. The line already has a decent interval service, and many trains are double units, so it would be ideally suited to four carriage electrics.

319s are barely quicker off the mark than DMUs. 350/2s would work, but if not 323s with some doubling up?

 

[Ken H]

Course it is, a short line with frequent stops in a completely urban area. It's only 7 miles from Oldham to Victoria, you talk like it's in the next county!

The Atherton line isn't anywhere near as cut and dried, although again it's a relatively short self-contained line and you only have to look at the success of the Leigh busway (including from Atherton!) to see what can be achieved with the right service.

oldham line is urban to Oldham. beyond there its just small towns like shaw and derker.

 

[yorksrob]

319s are barely quicker off the mark than DMUs. 350/2s would work, but if not 323s with some doubling up?

I'm sure they'll be fine, as long as they're four carriages.

 

[Ken H]

319s are barely quicker off the mark than DMUs. 350/2s would work, but if not 323s with some doubling up?

why are 319's so poor accelerating? Old DC motor technology, poor power to weight ratio? Rubbish adhesion? Constraints of old dual voltage electrics?
Are they better/worse than 321's?

The electrically similar 455 were re-tractioned with 3 phase drive and AC motors. Said to be worth it because of reduced brake wear meaning less shed time. maybe that would help the 319's. Would the investment pay for itself in the units lifetime?

 

[edwin_m]

why are 319's so poor accelerating? Old DC motor technology, poor power to weight ratio? Rubbish adhesion? Constraints of old dual voltage electrics?
Are they better/worse than 321's?

The electrically similar 455 were re-tractioned with 3 phase drive and AC motors. Said to be worth it because of reduced brake wear meaning less shed time. maybe that would help the 319's. Would the investment pay for itself in the units lifetime?

Mainly because all three classes only have motors on one car out of the four, which limits acceleration at low speeds, and they are DC motors which are less good at higher speeds. 323s have AC motors on two cars out of three and most of the newer classes are somewhere in between. Modern trams generally have AC motors on two thirds of the wheels, or even on all of them if they are to run in hilly places.