Oldest track on national rail

[Ken H]

What is the oldest track on a running line on NR?
Lets ignore loops

And is there any bullhead rail on a running line?

Ill start the ball rolling with the jointed track at Giggleswick.
Its flat bottomed
Baseplates dated 1954, but the rail might be later.
View media item 3418

 

[Ben.A.98]

Quite a lot of the Far North and Kyle lines are still on bullhead, there are still a few bit on the Inverness - Aberdeen line as well. I'll need to check the dates on the chairs next time I'm out there.

 

[The Planner]

Aylesbury to Calvert

 

[hwl]

Streatham Hill CS has some 1901.

 

[oddiesjack]

Unless it has been relaid this year, there is jointed bullhead rail on the GC/LNER lines into and out of Manchester Piccadilly, just to the North of Ardwick junction. There's maybe 100 yards or so. Would this be the most intensively used bullhead rail on the national network?

 

[Ken H]

Unless it has been relaid this year, there is jointed bullhead rail on the GC/LNER lines into and out of Manchester Piccadilly, just to the North of Ardwick junction. There's maybe 100 yards or so. Would this be the most intensively used bullhead rail on the national network?

I actually didnt know it was still a thing on main routes.
gobsmacked!

 

[Rail Ranger]

The bullhead rail on the Eastern lines outside Manchester Piccadilly was all replaced by flat-bottomed rail earlier this year but there is still lots of bullhead rail in Manchester Piccadilly station itself. There is some fairly ancient bullhead track in platforms 1 and 2 at Altrincham (some chairs are LNER, some are LMS reflecting the joint ownership of the Manchester South Junction and Altrincham Railway prior to 1948).

 

[InOban]

I believe they replaced some rails near Wick or Thurso last year with brand new bullhead which arrived by sea to Scrabster from Austria, AIRC, there being no UK source.

Most of the WHL is also old school.

 

[Mugby]

I went to Saltburn a couple of years ago and the bullhead rail in the station there was stamped LNER.

 

[Bald Rick]

There’s loads of bullhead rail on running lines, all over the network. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s old.

 

[Mugby]

There’s loads of bullhead rail on running lines, all over the network. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s old.

Quite so, in fact bullhead rail is most likely still produced in limited quantities.

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite so, in fact bullhead rail is most likely still produced in limited quantities.

It has to be, for fixing bullhead that has defects. Otherwise every defect would mean at least a length of new sleepers!

 

[33017]

Not sure how much (if any) is left but there was still bullhead rail on the Cambrian 7 or 8 years back that was stamped 'Cambrian Railway'. Around the same time I was told there were some rails on the Heart of Wales line that were a century old.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I recall a very senior RT manager not so long ago saying that there was a set of hand points in the Neath area dating from 1911 - very low risk with low levels of traffic over them.

Certainly in the days of the cost efficient BR - on the Cambrian section , they had a programe of resleepering which meant worn out sleepers were carefully removed to a safe local place, the ex GWR or older chairs were assessed and refixed to new sleepers and put back into service. Any "suspect" ones being sent for scrap. I suspect the same practice was used on the Central Wales line - where (then) local staff knew their area and their traffic (plus how much money they could spend !)

Rail wear , curves excepted , could be low - but I leave these judgements the experts such as Baldrick ..low tonnage = long life. I think.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Quite so, in fact bullhead rail is most likely still produced in limited quantities.

Used to be for LUL / LT where tube tunnels equated to difficult handling. Funnily enough had this conversation with one of their track quys a fortnight ago , who said this was the case in certain sections....

 

[Bald Rick]

Rail wear , curves excepted , could be low - but I leave these judgements the experts such as Baldrick ..low tonnage = long life. I think.

Quite - on low traffic routes they will rust away more quickly than wear away!

(Not sure about expert, by the way).

 

[DarloRich]

Simple answer: No one here will know! God knows what is out there is sidings and depots!

Quite so, in fact bullhead rail is most likely still produced in limited quantities.

Correct - it is. How would you fix a fault otherwise? However bullhead rail alone is no guide as to age.

 

[Ben.A.98]

I believe they replaced some rails near Wick or Thurso last year with brand new bullhead which arrived by sea to Scrabster from Austria, AIRC, there being no UK source.

Yes, the whole of the Thurso branch (6 miles) was completly re-railed within the last 2-3 years as well as many other sections of the Far North line

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, the whole of the Thurso branch (6 miles) was completly re-railed within the last 2-3 years as well as many other sections of the Far North line

I hope it was resleepered as well, otherwise it’s still bullhead!

 

[bramling]

Used to be for LUL / LT where tube tunnels equated to difficult handling. Funnily enough had this conversation with one of their track quys a fortnight ago , who said this was the case in certain sections....

Re-railing (as opposed to full replacement of the whole track formation) with bull head still happens on LU, indeed it’s very common to see new bull-head rail lying around waiting to be installed. It’s also not unheard of to find a section gets re-railed in bull-head then very soon after the whole lot is done with new sleepers/FB. LU also sees re-railing from BH to FB where the sleepers are retained and only the fixings and rails are replaced - mainly in tunnels.

BH on LU is declining over time, indeed it’s very much the minority in the open sections now - especially on plain track. There’s more left in the tunnels, however this is also disappearing progressively. I suspect there will still be some BH left on LU running lines in 20 years time though, just not as much as today.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Re-railing (as opposed to full replacement of the whole track formation) with bull head still happens on LU, indeed it’s very common to see new bull-head rail lying around waiting to be installed. It’s also not unheard of to find a section gets re-railed in bull-head then very soon after the whole lot is done with new sleepers/FB. LU also sees re-railing from BH to FB where the sleepers are retained and only the fixings and rails are replaced - mainly in tunnels.

BH on LU is declining over time, indeed it’s very much the minority in the open sections now - especially on plain track. There’s more left in the tunnels, however this is also disappearing progressively. I suspect there will still be some BH left on LU running lines in 20 years time though, just not as much as today.

That is exactly what this chap said - FB on the surface sections and careful BH in the tricky bits ! his job was to ultra-scan the rails , so he knows his stuff !)

 

[R G NOW.]

Yes, we have a section still in place through Gloucester station and with old wooden sleepers. Some sleepers were replaced last year but NR seem to botch it up rather than relay it. Also platform 3 still has it and is very dirty.

 

[bramling]

That is exactly what this chap said - FB on the surface sections and careful BH in the tricky bits ! his job was to ultra-scan the rails , so he knows his stuff !)

There must be umpteen different track forms in the Tube tunnels. There’s a few sections with wooden sleepers concreted in (with either BH or FB rail), however this seems to be on some of the oldest sections - and judging by the fact that it seems to be disappearing in favour of ballast, is presumably undesirable for some reason. Which is a pity as it’s bliss to walk on compared to ballast, and also produces a rather satisfying rumble when trains run over it.

One wonders how old some of this track form is, although of course the rails themselves may well be rather newer.

I seem to remember some CLR-stamped chairs in the old White City depot. These must have been pretty old.

 

[Ben.A.98]

I hope it was resleepered as well, otherwise it’s still bullhead!

No, just old rail out, new rail in.

 

[dk1]

Buckenham-Brundall on the up is LNER I think 1949.

 

[DarloRich]

Some sleepers were replaced last year but NR seem to botch it up rather than relay it

why replace something that doesn't need replacing?

 

[Bald Rick]

why replace something that doesn't need replacing?

Sometimes it’s cheaper to replace stuff than to keep it (as you know!)

 

[Dr_Paul]

The curve from Fulwell to Strawberry Hill is still in bullhead track; there are only two or three rush-hour services each way on a weekday on this route from Waterloo to Shepperton. A couple of lengths of bullhead rail were recently replaced in the bay at Kingston; the old rails were left in the four-foot and I was surprised to see how much their foot had been distorted where they had sat in the chair for several decades and taken the weight of traffic passing on them, even at a very low speed.

 

[Bald Rick]

The curve from Fulwell to Strawberry Hill is still in bullhead track; there are only two or three rush-hour services each way on a weekday on this route from Waterloo to Shepperton. A couple of lengths of bullhead rail were recently replaced in the bay at Kingston; the old rails were left in the four-foot and I was surprised to see how much their foot had been distorted where they had sat in the chair for several decades and taken the weight of traffic passing on them, even at a very low speed.

Tight curves are often bullhead, as it is much easier to ‘bend’ than flat bottom. When these curves are relaid with flat bottom rail, you have to buy ‘pre curved’ rail from the mill, which costs more.

 

[furnessvale]

Tight curves are often bullhead, as it is much easier to ‘bend’ than flat bottom. When these curves are relaid with flat bottom rail, you have to buy ‘pre curved’ rail from the mill, which costs more.

They must be quite tight curves to warrant that.

It's a lot of years since I was involved with perway but we never needed to do that, and the sight of a LWR train snaking through running crossovers demonstrates how much rails will naturally bend.