Northern timetable changes May 2019

[Mathew S]

The new timetable doesn’t seem to have done much to improve the evening chaos along the Castlefield corridor.

The familiar “this service is late because of congestion caused by earlier late running services” auto announcement has been getting a serous workout...

As @Bletchleyite has said, no amount of timetable tweaking will sort it. The whole idea of running so many services through Castlefield was predicted on building 15/16 at Picc and remodelling Ox Road. Until that happens, or services through there are reduced, there are no improvements to be made.

 

[Andyh82]

Are there any plans to run Manchester Airport to Lancaster hourly, rather than selected services only running as far as Preston like they do now?

 

[Glenn1969]

The gaps in the current service are due to be plugged from 1st July. But will that date slip?

 

[Mathew S]

Are there any plans to run Manchester Airport to Lancaster hourly, rather than selected services only running as far as Preston like they do now?

Yes, the full service which is due to come in from 1st July is hourly all day.

The gaps in the current service are due to be plugged from 1st July. But will that date slip?

Probably. If you look up these journeys on nationalrail.co.uk from 1st July onwards there is a warning to that effect, and has been since before the May '19 timetable even started.

 

[Bovverboy]

Are there any plans to run Manchester Airport to Lancaster hourly, rather than selected services only running as far as Preston like they do now?

Yes, the full service which is due to come in from 1st July is hourly all day.

Of the current eight through journeys between Manchester Airport and Windermere (four in each direction) five are currently scheduled to pass through Lancaster without stopping, and there is no alteration to that situation planned from 1 July.

 

[Mogster]

As @Bletchleyite has said, no amount of timetable tweaking will sort it. The whole idea of running so many services through Castlefield was predicted on building 15/16 at Picc and remodelling Ox Road. Until that happens, or services through there are reduced, there are no improvements to be made.

Yeah I understand that, if anything it actually seems worse though...

 

[Mathew S]

Of the current eight through journeys between Manchester Airport and Windermere (four in each direction) five are currently scheduled to pass through Lancaster without stopping, and there is no alteration to that situation planned from 1 July.

Oh, I'd completely missed that. Thanks

 

[GrahamD83]

Today I noticed the Northern timetable for Newcastle to Carlisle is only valid until 6th October? Is something changing on this date? Timetables for other routes are valid until December.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Did Huddersfield-Castleford on 144012 the other day, certainly a very bouncy ride!

On arrival at Castleford the crew seemed to shut the unit up once everyone had alighted and swap ends whilst still inside the train rather than getting out on to the platform then moved it out of the way

Can't say I blame them, given that they have to change ends three times in 10mins!

 

[Bovverboy]

Today I noticed the Northern timetable for Newcastle to Carlisle is only valid until 6th October? Is something changing on this date? Timetables for other routes are valid until December.

View attachment 64205

Some routes have amended timetables for the leaf-fall season, some don't. That's the most likely explanation.

 

[Roose]

Additional services? (See Tyne Valley thread)

 

[markydh]

That's the same every year. There's a leaf fall timetable after that date.

 

[Glenn1969]

I think the Penistone Line also normally has a leaf fall timetable

 

[Bovverboy]

The 1716 Crewe - Liverpool Lime Street is cancelled from Piccadilly tonight, so it looks like another week before a 323 to Wigan in passenger service!

Story so far.
25 May: 1228 Liverpool-Crewe, 1448 Crewe-Piccadilly, 1601 Piccadilly-Crewe, 1716 Crewe-Liverpool, 1945 Liverpool-Wigan, 2052 Wigan-Liverpool all cancelled.
1 June: 1716 Crewe-Liverpool terminated at Piccadilly. 1945 Liverpool-Wigan and 2052 Wigan-Liverpool operated by Class 319 instead of diagrammed 323.
8 June: 1945 Liverpool-Wigan cancelled because of a 'planning error'. 2052 Wigan-Liverpool cancelled in consequence.
(1945 was showing as being 'at platform' until c.2007, after which time it was shown as cancelled).

Imagine the situation. Driver turns up at 1944, thinks 'It's a 323, I'm not trained to drive one of those'. Powers that be decide that it's easier to cancel the return Wigan than mess about swapping units. (There were two 319s standing idle at Lime Street at the time).

I have to say that I had been far from convinced that a 323 would operate the 1945, but I did think that the journey would operate, with whatever.

 

[Bovverboy]

I did try to work out the diagrams before the timetables came in, think it was 6 with one being the 319 operating the Preston - Airports. Of the 5 remaining there looked to be the possibility of one being diagrammed a 156 although not sure if all diesels are allocated 158s. They work Barrow / Windermere - Airport and most also do a stint on the Windermere - Oxenholme branch at some point during the day. Hopefully once the 195s are in operation the 158s can head back east to ease the shortforming which can snowballed since the latest timetable changes

I caught sight tonight of what I can only presume was the 1829 Airport-Barrow, it was a 156.

 

[prod_pep]

I have to say that I had been far from convinced that a 323 would operate the 1945, but I did think that the journey would operate, with whatever.

There is no doubt that the 1945 Liverpool - Wigan and 2052 return are booked for a 323 but three clangers in a row is so unfortunate. We reconvene next week for attempt four.

Just for clarification, the Northern website's departure boards don't show train lengths, but some other TOCs do, e.g. Great Northern and Southeastern (Broad Green as an example: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/t...rney/station-information/stations/broad-green). These boards have shown the 1945 and 2052 return as 3 carriages for the past two Saturdays, before cancellation and last week's 319 swap. Tonight's cancellation was shown on Northern's website and GN's departure board well before RTT and it was due to crew unavailability.

 

[Bovverboy]

I have to say that I had been far from convinced that a 323 would operate the 1945, but I did think that the journey would operate, with whatever.

There is no doubt that the 1945 Liverpool - Wigan and 2052 return are booked for a 323 but three clangers in a row is so unfortunate. We reconvene next week for attempt four.

I don't in any way contest the notion that the journeys in question are booked for a 323, but that does not in itself mean that one is going to turn up.
For a 323 to appear on the relevant journeys:
1) 323s need to be authorised for the route (which I presume they are);
2) the crew need to be suitably trained (and I suspect that this may still be a problem).

Just for clarification, the Northern website's departure boards don't show train lengths, but some other TOCs do, e.g. Great Northern and Southeastern (Broad Green as an example: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/t...rney/station-information/stations/broad-green). These boards have shown the 1945 and 2052 return as 3 carriages for the past two Saturdays, before cancellation and last week's 319 swap. Tonight's cancellation was shown on Northern's website and GN's departure board well before RTT

How long, exactly, before RTT?

and it was due to crew unavailability.

That can mean anything, including unavailability of a crew passed on 323s. From where were the crew sourced for the rest of the duty?

It does seem strange that, of only three Lime Street NT departures cancelled over the course of the entire day (other than one ascribed to a technical fault) one should happen to be this increasingly-notorious 323 duty.

 

[HotelNovember]

I don't in any way contest the notion that the journeys in question are booked for a 323, but that does not in itself mean that one is going to turn up.
For a 323 to appear on the relevant journeys:
1) 323s need to be authorised for the route (which I presume they are);
2) the crew need to be suitably trained (and I suspect that this may still be a problem).

I very seriously doubt that the diagramming department would have put a unit that isn’t cleared, nor the crew not have the appropriate traction knowledge in the first place.

323’s can definitely go to Wigan, and the service concerned definitely has a full compliment of Liverpool traincrew on it, which is why this service can be a 323.

However;

There are still drivers at Liverpool that don’t sign 323’s.

(I think it’s just unlucky, rather than intentional that’s it’s this service concerned that’s cancelled)

That can mean anything, including unavailability of a crew passed on 323s. From where were the crew sourced for the rest of the duty?

The rest of the Drivers job ran fine (Another earlier Wigan and a Warrington).

Don’t be surprised by the Rostering department putting a driver not traction competent on that job though!

Only the other week a Man Victoria conductor covering a Liverpool job from Spare had a 323 involved in the turn, Victoria don’t sign 323’s. Oops!

Unrelated but look at 5F41 yesterday ECS Preston-Warrington BQ, Liverpool driver had no route knowledge WCML Wigan-Warrington so had to go via Huyton to get to Warrington BQ, so these rostering errors or just issues with traction/route knowledge happen!

 

[Mathew S]

I caught sight tonight of what I can only presume was the 1829 Airport-Barrow, it was a 156.

Where did you see it, if you don't mind me asking? A 156 on that route would struggle to keep to time on the WCML section without holding up other services.

 

[northernchris]

Where did you see it, if you don't mind me asking? A 156 on that route would struggle to keep to time on the WCML section without holding up other services.

There may be a 156 diagram on the circuit, the below service is timed for 150/156 and does run a little earlier from Preston than the standard pattern

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y67149/2019/06/10/advanced

 

[Greybeard33]

There may be a 156 diagram on the circuit, the below service is timed for 150/156 and does run a little earlier from Preston than the standard pattern

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y67149/2019/06/10/advanced

Yet the next working on the same diagram (1229 Airport to Barrow) is pathed as a 158! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y61033/2019/06/10/advanced

 

[darloscott]

It is interesting looking at the changes... I'm in the middle of continuing to work out the diagrams and for example it looks like Sheffield has an extra 2 units overnight with some additional early trips put into the schedule, seemingly a new 0528 Leeds via Castleford and 0548 to Doncaster (which then comes back empty...)

 

[Mathew S]

There may be a 156 diagram on the circuit, the below service is timed for 150/156 and does run a little earlier from Preston than the standard pattern

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y67149/2019/06/10/advanced

Nice spot but I think it has been 158 operated on the few occasions I've seen it.

Yet the next working on the same diagram (1229 Airport to Barrow) is pathed as a 158! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y61033/2019/06/10/advanced

1229 has been a 158 whenever I've seen it. There is some variability in the timings each hour, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to that.

 

[northernchris]

Nice spot but I think it has been 158 operated on the few occasions I've seen it.


1229 has been a 158 whenever I've seen it. There is some variability in the timings each hour, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to that.

Ah, I did wonder if it was a sprinter so Blackpool crew would keep up traction knowledge of 156s

 

[Bovverboy]

I caught sight tonight of what I can only presume was the 1829 Airport-Barrow, it was a 156.

Where did you see it, if you don't mind me asking?

Leaving Wigan, 2L at 1921.

A 156 on that route would struggle to keep to time on the WCML section without holding up other services.

I think this whole issue of 75mph v 90mph stock gets blown out of all proportion, tbh. The principal section where a slower train could potentially delay a faster one, Preston to Oxenholme, is only 40 miles, and the difference between 75mph and 90mph stock over that distance can't be more than five minutes, if that.

 

[Mathew S]

Leaving Wigan, 2L at 1921.



I think this whole issue of 75mph v 90mph stock gets blown out of all proportion, tbh. The principal section where a slower train could potentially delay a faster one, Preston to Oxenholme, is only 40 miles, and the difference between 75mph and 90mph stock over that distance can't be more than five minutes, if that.

Looming on RTT, it did lose a few minutes throughout the journey, which would fit with it being a 156 rather than 158. Honestly, I'd be fine with a 156 on that journey. If we ever get to 150s, though, I shall be miffed.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think this whole issue of 75mph v 90mph stock gets blown out of all proportion, tbh. The principal section where a slower train could potentially delay a faster one, Preston to Oxenholme, is only 40 miles, and the difference between 75mph and 90mph stock over that distance can't be more than five minutes, if that.

It is a question of the Network Rail planning rules. One minute can make the difference between being granted a path or not. Northern did not bring the 158s across the Pennines and train crews on them just for the fun of it.

Mon-Fri the 1829 from the Airport is scheduled through Carnforth North Junction only 8 minutes ahead of a 125mph Euston to Edinburgh 221. Saturdays there is more slack in the timetable.

 

[Mathew S]

It is a question of the Network Rail planning rules. One minute can make the difference between being granted a path or not. Northern did not bring the 158s across the Pennines and train crews on them just for the fun of it.

Mon-Fri the 1829 from the Airport is scheduled through Carnforth North Junction only 8 minutes ahead of a 125mph Euston to Edinburgh 221. Saturdays there is more slack in the timetable.

With the southbound services especially, they leave Wigan only roughly 5 minutes ahead of the following Virgin service, and the gap when they hit Golborne junction is even less than that. A loss of even a couple of minutes starts to back things up.

 

[prod_pep]

The Saturdays-only 1945 Liverpool Lime Street - Wigan North Western is finally going ahead with the booked 323 traction tonight, with the honour going to 323225.

Edit: service diverted via Newton-le-Willows due to a fault on the 319 junk working the service ahead. So, first passenger 323 via Parkside West Curve too!

 

[Bovverboy]

The Saturdays-only 1945 Liverpool Lime Street - Wigan North Western is finally going ahead with the booked 323 traction tonight, with the honour going to 323225.

I'd quite forgotten we'd got round to Saturday again. The 323 on the 19.45 seems an anti-climax, somehow.
P.S. The 19.45 runs SuX, but it's only booked for a 323 on a Saturday.