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HS2: Bombardier and Hitachi bid to build trains

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Japan0913

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globenewswire June 05, 2019
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-...mbardier-and-Hitachi-bid-to-build-trains.html
Two UK-based rail giants are submitting today a ‘Great British’ train proposal to High Speed Two (HS2) that would be the most advanced, customer-oriented train ever to run in the UK.

The contract, worth £2.75billion, is to design, build and maintain at least 54 trains for Phase One of HS2.

Hitachi has pioneered Japan’s world-renowned Shinkansen ‘bullet trains’ while Bombardier offers a depth of international experience from its high speed trains operating in Europe and on the world’s largest network in China.

In 2015, the two companies together delivered the Frecciarossa (Red Arrow) ETR1000 for Trenitalia, which is the fastest yet quietest in-service high speed train in Europe. Operating at speeds up to 225 mph, it has transformed passenger experience and connectivity across Italy.

Its success has been recognised by Trenitalia placing a further order in June 2019 for 14 new trains, increasing Frecciarossa (Red Arrow) high speed services across Italy.

Hitachi Rail’s Managing Director Karen Boswell OBE said:

“Hitachi-Bombardier’s Great British train for HS2 would be a shining example of British ingenuity. Our bid, if successful, would bring significant benefits for economies and communities, while truly transforming connectivity and passengers’ experience.”

Bombardier’s President, UK, Phil Hufton said:

“HS2 is this generation's chance to transform our country. Our Great British train will connect our great cities and improve the journeys of every passenger. HS2’s vision is to be a catalyst for growth across Britain – we are ready to make that happen.”

Alongside London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, HS2 services will also serve destinations beyond the core HS2 network, including York, Newcastle, Liverpool, the North West, Glasgow and Edinburgh.

・・・・・・

20190604-hs2-bombardier-and-hitachi-bid-to-build-trains.jpg
I want to see the image of the front ...
 
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RailUK Forums

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"UK-Based Rail Giants" is a bit of a stretch! Quite interested to see how this product turns out though...
It had better be a substantial (ie about 100 times) improvement on the dross (s)Hitachi are delivering for long distance trains currently.
 

superalbs

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I'd rather see something from Siemens (their Velaro units are the best in the world), or literally anyone else for that matter.
 

Mikey C

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I assume Alstom and Siemens will now be bidding separately. It would have been interesting if the merger had gone ahead, which platform they would have gone with?
 

hwl

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I'd rather see something from Siemens (their Velaro units are the best in the world), or literally anyone else for that matter.
Their HS2 offering will be based on the Italian ETR1000 (which has limited tilt functionality...)
 

hwl

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I assume Alstom and Siemens will now be bidding separately. It would have been interesting if the merger had gone ahead, which platform they would have gone with?
They always were bidding separately never anything joint. Siemens with Velaro Turkey based option. (Not Velaro Novo)
 

Mikey C

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What complicates things is that there will need to be two types of trains, one for HS2 exclusively, and one that can fit on the Classic lines. I imagine producing something for the latter will add significantly to the development cost
 

edwin_m

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What complicates things is that there will need to be two types of trains, one for HS2 exclusively, and one that can fit on the Classic lines. I imagine producing something for the latter will add significantly to the development cost
That was the original idea but the Phase 1 order will now be for classic compatibles only. With only the Birmingham route being fully on new infrastructure a split fleet doesn't make sense. There could be captive sets for Phase 2 but that order will be several years away.
 

samuelmorris

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What complicates things is that there will need to be two types of trains, one for HS2 exclusively, and one that can fit on the Classic lines. I imagine producing something for the latter will add significantly to the development cost
Technically those don't need to be from the same manufacturer do they?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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What complicates things is that there will need to be two types of trains, one for HS2 exclusively, and one that can fit on the Classic lines. I imagine producing something for the latter will add significantly to the development cost

No there isn't - DfT are procuring classic compatible types only, at least for Phase 1/2a.

I expect this Great British train would be based on the Frecciarossa 1000, which is being built by Hitachi in Italy, with mainly Bombardier components.
But there are 4 other bidders - Alstom, Siemens, Talgo and CAF.
 

broadgage

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"Customer orientated"
Does this include a buffet ?
And padded seats ?
And toilets and reservations that work reliably from day one ?
And luggage space ?
 

pdeaves

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"most advanced, customer-oriented train ever to run in the UK". Hmmm, that could easily be marketing fluff to distract from un-"customer oriented" things like the perennial seat/window pillar alignment issues, or so much unnecessary technology to solve non-problems that it keeps going wrong. Conversely, it could mean designed with the passenger in mind from the first step, but recent experience suggests that this may not be so.
 

samuelmorris

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"Customer orientated"
Does this include a buffet ?
And padded seats ?
And toilets and reservations that work reliably from day one ?
And luggage space ?

Buffet, probably - as a premium product I can't seem them wanting to run HS2 services without something the competing WCML and ECML routes offer. However, the short journey time from Euston to Curzon Street may well see those services run without one - frankly, 45 minute journeys don't really need a buffet.

Padded seats no, as things stand I see no reason why they would be any different to Class 802 seats. Where are the seat designs that are UK regs compliant at HS2 speeds?

Working toilets is anyone's guess, probably depends on who gets the contract, but given the length of the trains, I'm sure at least some of the toilets will be working!

Working reservations here's hoping, the systems won't be sullied with the data import issues of taking over from existing fleets as it's a brand new route. Not unreasonable to expect poor reliability of such a system in the first 6 months after deployment, however.

Luggage space should be good, these will be long trains, geared more for the best journey experience (to get people off the existing mainlines) rather than absolute maximum capacity to make use of a crowded set of tracks. I don't see that one being an issue.

Seat alignment, who knows. Possible, but don't hold your breath!
 

Bletchleyite

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Working reservations here's hoping, the systems won't be sullied with the data import issues of taking over from existing fleets as it's a brand new route. Not unreasonable to expect poor reliability of such a system in the first 6 months after deployment, however.

There's a distinct possibility that they will go compulsory reservation for HS2. If they do, there's no need to mark them at all, as everyone has an allocated seat.
 

samuelmorris

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That is a distinct possibility though I hope they leave a small part of the train out of the compulsary reservations because being able to get to Birmingham / the Midlands at a moment's notice should be one of HS2's big selling points.
 

Bletchleyite

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That is a distinct possibility though I hope they leave a small part of the train out of the compulsary reservations because being able to get to Birmingham / the Midlands at a moment's notice should be one of HS2's big selling points.

With a very large capacity on each 400m train I suspect the vast majority of them will not be full for some time.
 

hwl

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"Customer orientated"
Does this include a buffet ?
And padded seats ?
And toilets and reservations that work reliably from day one ?
And luggage space ?
No - counter service hatches x2, trolleys and venting machines (Hot drinks and snacks)
Maybe - specified leg room is decent though
Yes - Min 10 per 200m set (2 Universal)
Yes - lots!
 
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hwl

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When do we start the discussion about the seats....? (Sorry mods :D)
The contract is all about seats - namely how many you can squeeze in sensibly to maximise peak revenue....
 
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hwl

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What's a "counter service hatch" if not a buffet?
a small Kiosk rather than a tradtional buffet before anyone start dreaming nostalgically about cooked food. Hot drink is about the limit for warm stuff.
 

Mikey C

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That was the original idea but the Phase 1 order will now be for classic compatibles only. With only the Birmingham route being fully on new infrastructure a split fleet doesn't make sense. There could be captive sets for Phase 2 but that order will be several years away.

The Classic Compatibles are the difficult trains though, as they're unique to the UK and will have to deal with the loading gauge, signalling etc of the Classic network. If we were just ordering the Captive sets, they would be far easier as existing European high speed trains could be used with relatively minor modifications. The Eurostar Velaros are recognisably close cousins of those used elsewhere for example whereas the Class 373s are highly bespoke.
 

transmanche

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That is a distinct possibility though I hope they leave a small part of the train out of the compulsary reservations because being able to get to Birmingham / the Midlands at a moment's notice should be one of HS2's big selling points.
By the time HS2 is up and running, I'd expect it to have an 'instant reservations' system. Using a phone app to reserve a seat up to the second of departure, with TVMs (or similar) on platforms allowing you to reserve a seat up to a couple of minutes before departure.
 

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Japan0913

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The Classic Compatibles are the difficult trains though, as they're unique to the UK and will have to deal with the loading gauge, signalling etc of the Classic network. If we were just ordering the Captive sets, they would be far easier as existing European high speed trains could be used with relatively minor modifications. The Eurostar Velaros are recognisably close cousins of those used elsewhere for example whereas the Class 373s are highly bespoke.
In recent years, Hitachi has struggled to adapt to the old infrastructure, but I think that the HS2 vehicle design can make the most of its experience, especially in the second phase.
 

edwin_m

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The Classic Compatibles are the difficult trains though, as they're unique to the UK and will have to deal with the loading gauge, signalling etc of the Classic network. If we were just ordering the Captive sets, they would be far easier as existing European high speed trains could be used with relatively minor modifications. The Eurostar Velaros are recognisably close cousins of those used elsewhere for example whereas the Class 373s are highly bespoke.
That's true, but at least some of the Phase 1 fleet would have had to be classic compatibles. There will be a major cost to design the fleet, but that cost doesn't depend on how many are produced and the production cost won't be much different from a standard design. Therefore having a common fleet doesn't cost more and may even cost less as it only requires one set of acceptance and approval, as well as the benefit of being able to use any set on any service.
 

Chester1

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By the time HS2 is up and running, I'd expect it to have an 'instant reservations' system. Using a phone app to reserve a seat up to the second of departure, with TVMs (or similar) on platforms allowing you to reserve a seat up to a couple of minutes before departure.

That could be delivered soon than 2026 if everyone involved got their act together.
 
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