ECML closed PBO to KGX Aug Bank Holiday routing

[Haywain]

They can drag the 91s like they have done previously, at least as far as Peterborough (are they cleared via Ely, I don't know).

Which would then add in the time, capacity and complication of having to have the dragging loco run round at the station where they terminate.

 

[Master29]

The numbers travelling do not compare even remotely between weekdays and weekends.

In what way. More people travelling during the week or at weekends?

 

[Glenn1969]

More people travelling to work during the week

 

[ashkeba]

More people travelling to work during the week

Do non-work travellers not count, then?

 

[Glenn1969]

They do. There just aren't as many of them unless I'm mistaken

 

[jon0844]

Do non-work travellers not count, then?

If you're having to choose who to disrupt, you're going to prioritise those who could defer their travel. Those who have to get to work, or else have to waste annual leave for the day off, are going to be more important than someone making a trip to go shopping or go to the seaside.

If you are organising alternative travel arrangements that will add a long time to journey times, or will have limited capacity in comparison, why would you do this on a weekday compared to a weekend or bank holiday?

Obviously there are people who work weekends too, plus shift workers that may suffer longer journey times, but you are massively reducing the impact on the majority of people.

Remember, you have to do the work so suggesting you don't impact anyone isn't an option. You have to make a decision, and the right decision is to do work at weekends, Sunday mornings, bank holidays and Christmas.

 

[Aictos]

Thanks, I've no idea about the infrastructure down there, though could they reverse at Oakham or Melton?

Not possible at Oakham as there's no infrastructure to do so as it's plain line track there and at Melton Mowbray it is possible but 1. The platforms can only take a 3 car train so anything longer will take time to get people on/off and 2. The only way to reverse anything at Melton Mowbray is for the train to run ECS to just north of the station then using shunt signals back into the Peterborough platform.

All this will take a lot of time more so if the train is a HST so it's far better to send the train onto Leicester and reverse there as it has much better infrastructure in place to deal with this kind of movement.

 

[Tomnick]

Thanks, I've no idea about the infrastructure down there, though could they reverse at Oakham or Melton?

Not really. There is a signalled shunt move to reverse at Manton but (towards Peterborough) it involves a trailing crossover mechanically worked from a ground frame, so far from ideal. The next opportunity is the emergency trailing crossover at Langham which is unsignalled, so even less ideal. Finally there’s a (signalled) trailing crossover mechanically worked from the box at Melton, but this would need securing for each movement. Even if you had the staff and the paths, it’d take far too long to be viable.

 

[IanXC]

If that is true, customers of 'The Railway' will be making sub-optimal travel choices, both time and money.
And that is unacceptable, notwithstanding the advice not to travel.

You may wish to get down off your high horse here.

Tickets are not yet on sale for these dates so no one is buying tickets based on this information.

 

[hwl]

In what way. More people travelling during the week or at weekends?

Numbers are massively higher during the week by about 2.5 to 3 times as many per day.

GTR is the largest operator affected by the work (would be about 77% of services in the engineering works area if done on a weekday and a similar but slightly variable number at the weekend) but no one seems to want focus on the impacts there. You have to look at GTR impacts first.

 

[Haywain]

Tickets are not yet on sale for these dates so no one is buying tickets based on this information.

And timetables haven’t been finalised, so comments about what will and won’t happen, on the ECML in particular, are largely speculation.

 

[eastdyke]

You may wish to get down off your high horse here.
Tickets are not yet on sale for these dates so no one is buying tickets based on this information.

With respect, both you and I know that LNER have not yet released tickets for those dates.

Using the NRE Journey Planner, for say a journey Newark Northgate to Ely, shows that tickets are available, with convoluted itineraries. No warning is given that further tickets may be released and it is easy to assume that 'this is it', especially bearing in mind advance notices of the engineering works [which incidentally are not at this instant showing in the Future Engineering Work section of NRE, although they were a few minutes ago - being updated perhaps?]*

Split ticketing sites seem quite happy to sell tickets.

*Edit: Have re-appeared now.

 

[bb21]

10 coach 180s would be a novelty for Hull Trains!

Why? It's happened numerous times before in special events.

 

[Skimble19]

Numbers are massively higher during the week by about 2.5 to 3 times as many per day.

GTR is the largest operator affected by the work (would be about 77% of services if done on a weekday and a similar but slightly variable number at the weekend) but no one seems to want focus on the impacts there. You have to look at GTR impacts first.

Indeed. The new Cambridge/Royston to Brighton/Gatwick weekend services I imagine will start and turn back at London Bridge like the Horsham's do at weekends currently. "Proper" Thameslink shouldn't really be affected other than a minor reduction of 1/2tph in the core. It's the GN side that is being left with almost no trains at all.

 

[Kite159]

Why? It's happened numerous times before in special events.

Has it, I knew GC has run double 180s for special events, but not Hull Trains (mainly due to the number of units)

--------------

Diverts via non-electrical lines [i.e via Lincoln] will probably be easier now LNER have some 800s in traffic, so less need for 67 hauled 91s.

 

[ainsworth74]

Has it, I knew GC has run double 180s for special events, but not Hull Trains (mainly due to the number of units)

Definitely. I think most recently after one of the teams (I want to say rugby) were involved in some sort of final in London last year (or maybe earlier this year).

 

[DarloRich]

Has it, I knew GC has run double 180s for special events, but not Hull Trains (mainly due to the number of units)

I have also seen 5 x HT and 5 x GC running together to save paths

 

[Aictos]

Indeed. The new Cambridge/Royston to Brighton/Gatwick weekend services I imagine will start and turn back at London Bridge like the Horsham's do at weekends currently. "Proper" Thameslink shouldn't really be affected other than a minor reduction of 1/2tph in the core. It's the GN side that is being left with almost no trains at all.

Why should the TL “proper” be affected by the works on the GN, surely if anything extra trains should be put on or ensure the majority of the TL services are 12 cars between Bedford/Luton and London with a rail replacement service between key GN and TL North stations feeding a beefed up service?

Say Huntingdon to Bedford via St Neots , Stevenage to Luton via Hitchin, St Albans to Hatfield via Welwyn GC etc....

Could GN “proper” and TL “GN Side” operate between Peterborough/Cambridge to Stevenage/Welwyn GC?

Equally, was any thought given to clearing a number of 12 car Class 700s between Cambridge and London Liverpool Street as that would help soak up the numbers on that route?

 

[londonbridge]

I notice Grand Central are runnning no services whatsoever on the Saurday and Sunday, is it not feasible for them to run just between Peterborough and Sunderland then? Will likely cause a few problems for Sunderland/Newcastle fans depending on where/when they're playing that weekend, and remembering one will be at home, the other away.

 

[ainsworth74]

I notice Grand Central are runnning no services whatsoever on the Saurday and Sunday, is it not feasible for them to run just between Peterborough and Sunderland then? Will likely cause a few problems for Sunderland/Newcastle fans depending on where/when they're playing that weekend, and remembering one will be at home, the other away.

Relatively standard for GC! Last time there was a blockade so significant it caused Hull Trains to go via the MML and East Coast (I think as was) were terminating at Peterborough GC didn't run any trains. Not even a shuttle from Sunderland to York!

 

[hwl]

Indeed. The new Cambridge/Royston to Brighton/Gatwick weekend services I imagine will start and turn back at London Bridge like the Horsham's do at weekends currently. "Proper" Thameslink shouldn't really be affected other than a minor reduction of 1/2tph in the core. It's the GN side that is being left with almost no trains at all.

Given the lower MML TL weekend frequencies it is possibly worth running some of the ECML TL ones up the MML given the relative ECML and MML proximity

 

[Haywain]

Given the lower MML TL weekend frequencies it is possibly worth running some of the ECML TL ones up the MML given the relative ECML and MML proximity

Is that the lower 4 fast per hour weekend service (all 12 car) that you’re referring to?

 

[Class 170101]

Do we know which TOC will be operating the MML in late August? It may be too soon for Abellio to get involved with this diversion operation.

Abellio would already know because of the effect on their operations at Cambridge with Greater Anglia.


As for LNER running HSTs to Cambridge the only way they would be able to do it would be to run a Cambridge to Leeds service and a separate Doncaster to Scotland service as they would run out of HSTs. They don't seem to like splitting Anglo - Scottish services as these tend to operate throughout regardless of blocks including via Carlisle which tends to require the most HSTs.

It would be nice to see if MML could have extended to Doncaster from Sheffield and from Nottingham to Grantham but that would have been their limit probably.

As for Hull Trains, note their diversion to St Pancras also includes the top end of the Barrow Hill lines between Beighton Jn and Rotherham Masborough which only sees passenger trains on diversions. I guess the running via Goole means there is a block between Temple Hirst and Gilberdyke Jns.

 

[IrishDave]

Some of those Hull Train diverts are a bit odd, i.e. on the Saturday morning one calls at Brough then to the public timetable runs non-stop to St Pancras. Another goes via Goole. I would imagine the loading on that 05:53 Hull - St Pancras will be low.

[although I will admit the chance of a fast 180/HST from St Pancras on the MML towards Brough is a bit tempting mainly for the novelty factor]

The rugby league Challenge Cup final is on at Wembley on the Saturday of that weekend - I'd guess that they're betting that at least one team from Hull will make the final?

 

[Master29]

Numbers are massively higher during the week by about 2.5 to 3 times as many per day.

GTR is the largest operator affected by the work (would be about 77% of services in the engineering works area if done on a weekday and a similar but slightly variable number at the weekend) but no one seems to want focus on the impacts there. You have to look at GTR impacts first.

Thanks. A sensible answer at last. Now it makes some sense. I just wanted clarification.

 

[Master29]

that is far to sensible a response for this board! Many posters simply want to complain and point out how they know best.

Not really given that it explains nothing. I asked this guy to clarify what he meant and he didn`t answer, He`s under no obligation to of course but a simple answer as to why it has to happen over a bank holiday period would have been a good start instead of the cynical tone of his post. I agree however that there are some who clearly seem to think they do know better than others but then there always are.
Thankfully, some good learned members have shown as to why it makes sense to perform these tasks over the said period. I happily defer to these guys.

 

[IanXC]

With respect, both you and I know that LNER have not yet released tickets for those dates.

So, with respect, what was the need for:

If that is true, customers of 'The Railway' will be making sub-optimal travel choices, both time and money.
And that is unacceptable, notwithstanding the advice not to travel.

 

[DarloRich]

Not really given that it explains nothing. I asked this guy to clarify what he meant and he didn`t answer, He`s under no obligation to of course but a simple answer as to why it has to happen over a bank holiday period would have been a good start instead of the cynical tone of his post. I agree however that there are some who clearly seem to think they do know better than others but then there always are.
Thankfully, some good learned members have shown as to why it makes sense to perform these tasks over the said period. I happily defer to these guys.

You honestly need someone to explain that numbers travelling are less on a weekend or a bank holiday compared to a normal weekday? really?

BTW that post you don't like is the most accurate on this thread.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

On realtime trains rail replacement coaches Peterborough to Bedford

 

[Master29]

You honestly need someone to explain that numbers travelling are less on a weekend or a bank holiday compared to a normal weekday? really?

BTW that most you don't like is the most accurate on this thread.

Yet again the air of superiority with your posts.