Media picks up on transport disparity between London and "the North"

[Ken H]

Indeed. Barnett's not perfect, but it's better than what we have now.

2017/18

• Scotland: £10,881 (16% above the UK average)
• Wales: £10,397 (11% above the UK average)
• Northern Ireland £11,190 (20% above the UK average).

per capita UK regions and Scotland, NI and Wales


Source - HM Treasury

 

[yorksrob]

Why would it be one "odd lone MP?" Don't M.P.s representing Northern constituencies talk to each other? Don't they agree on anything? I find it hard to believe that they haven't all been told repeatedly by their constituents that the local train service needs longer trains.

Its an interesting point. New labour claimed to represent the North, but then came up with things such as the Northern "No growth" franchise. Too much of an Islington sect perhaps.

 

[Hophead]

The Government in London has reduced Council budgets by 40% in the last decade. Transport subsidies have been squeezed massively which is why a fair few bus services have been withdrawn. Unfortunately they don't control fares and can't force operators to accept each others tickets on routes that change hands at evenings and weekends

They can certainly stipulate that any services they subsidise accept other operator's tickets. In fact, they can impose pretty much whatever conditions they wish. Whether anybody can offer at a price that is acceptable is another matter.

 

[yorksrob]

2017/18
per capita UK regions and Scotland, NI and Wales
View attachment 64203

Source - HM Treasury

It's telling that expenditure per capita on Yorkshire is even less than London, let alone the national average.

 

[Ken H]

Its an interesting point. New labour claimed to represent the North, but then came up with things such as the Northern "No growth" franchise. Too much of an Islington sect perhaps.

And stories in the press (mail) today of £1bn Crossrail trains rusting away in sidings with no-where to run. While people up north struggle in 2 car pacers.

Crossrail trains worth £1BILLION sit idle in depot waiting to be used on new rail line that may not be fully open until 2021

- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7116453/Crossrail-trains-worth-1BILLION-sit-idle-depot.html

 

[Ken H]

They can certainly stipulate that any services they subsidise accept other operator's tickets. In fact, they can impose pretty much whatever conditions they wish. Whether anybody can offer at a price that is acceptable is another matter.

what has mucked up buses is free pensioners passes. This wasnt fully funded, so local government has to find the money to pay the bus companies.
And its the council where the bus runs, not the pace where the passenger pays council tax, that pays. so tourist areas are disproportionately hit. I bet lake district buses are crammed with out of county pensioners, and the bill falls on Cumbria Council.

 

[route:oxford]

There will never be parity.

Let's compare two University Cities and two Capitals.

Stirling to Edinburgh - £16.10 Peak, £9.70 Off Peak
Oxford to London - - £66.60 Peak, £27.40 Off Peak

They are pretty close to being the same journey. Yet one costs between 3 or 4 times as much as the other.

Stirling - Average Salary £22K
Oxford - Average Salary £29K

I've not seen a single petition in Stirling campaigning for parity with GWR prices.

 

[700007]

Yes that’s not how government should work though, is it? The point of having a government is to ensure that resources are spread around appropriately.

Well this is devolved from central to local government though so unfortunately London Council doesn't care in the slightest about anything outside of the Greater London area in the same manner the local authority for Newcastle would not care about anything beyond the realms of Newcastle.

 

[700007]

And stories in the press (mail) today of £1bn Crossrail trains rusting away in sidings with no-where to run. While people up north struggle in 2 car pacers.

- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7116453/Crossrail-trains-worth-1BILLION-sit-idle-depot.html

Please don't link the Daily Mail on this forum again. Ta

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Remember though, there are examples outside of London where the local authority play a very very strong role in public transport.
Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Birmingham and Nottingham especially make a pretty good job of buses/trams/trains in their jurisdiction.
Nottingham charge larger businesses for the supply of free parking spaces for their employees and throw it back at public transport to provide better services and newer buses and routes

It can be done if the right people take charge and regulate it properly, however if left unregulated we get the system, the cost and the excuses we get now

 

[Tio Terry]

what has mucked up buses is free pensioners passes. This wasnt fully funded, so local government has to find the money to pay the bus companies.
And its the council where the bus runs, not the pace where the passenger pays council tax, that pays. so tourist areas are disproportionately hit. I bet lake district buses are crammed with out of county pensioners, and the bill falls on Cumbria Council.

Interesting viewpoint. I'm a few weeks away from being 70, but I've never applied for a bus pass. I wonder how many of those entitled to one have never bothered to apply for one?

 

[underbank]

what has mucked up buses is free pensioners passes. This wasnt fully funded, so local government has to find the money to pay the bus companies.
And its the council where the bus runs, not the pace where the passenger pays council tax, that pays. so tourist areas are disproportionately hit. I bet lake district buses are crammed with out of county pensioners, and the bill falls on Cumbria Council.

They're pretty crammed with school kids around start/finishing times as there are painfully few buses for large numbers of kids who have to travel pretty long distances. Unlike London, though, kids (or their parents) have to pay through the nose for bus passes which can be pretty extortionate (in Lancaster for example, uni students pay far less for bus passes than school kids!).

 

[Tio Terry]

They're pretty crammed with school kids around start/finishing times as there are painfully few buses for large numbers of kids who have to travel pretty long distances. Unlike London, though, kids (or their parents) have to pay through the nose for bus passes which can be pretty extortionate (in Lancaster for example, uni students pay far less for bus passes than school kids!).

Whilst London's youth don't have to pay for their local transport, surely their parents do via Council Taxes? After all, TfL is largely financed via local taxes.

 

[underbank]

Whilst London's youth don't have to pay for their local transport, surely their parents do via Council Taxes? After all, TfL is largely financed via local taxes.

Council tax isn't cheaper "up north"

 

[yorkie]

And stories in the press (mail) today of £1bn Crossrail trains rusting away in sidings with no-where to run. While people up north struggle in 2 car pacers.

Weird post.

What has Crossrail delays got to do with the fact that the replacement of 2 car Pacers is delayed, other than the fact that delays to projects happen, which is not the subject of this thread.

 

[Bromley boy]

Council tax isn't cheaper "up north"

It’s linked to property prices, so it must be?

 

[Ken H]

Weird post.

What has Crossrail delays got to do with the fact that the replacement of 2 car Pacers is delayed, other than the fact that delays to projects happen, which is not the subject of this thread.

nope. It fuels the idea up north that London get all the new stuff and the north just gets the crumbs. OK, its a mail story but lots read it.

 

[Glenn1969]

So does the fact that Grayling greenlit funding for development of Crossrail 2 at the same time as shelving the much needed Castlefield works

 

[Ken H]

So does the fact that Grayling greenlit funding for development of Crossrail 2 at the same time as shelving the much needed Castlefield works

and delayed trans-pennine electrification

 

[underbank]

It’s linked to property prices, so it must be?

Linked to historic prices years ago so doesn't reflect the widening of the house price gap over more recent years.

And when you compare the banding charges in different areas, some of the charges in London boroughs are less than in the regions, i.e. a band C in certain London boroughs is cheaper than a band C in some regions.

Then of course, the fact that the bands are set so that once you are in the highest band, your council tax is the same whether your home has a value of £500k or £5m.

 

[LeeLivery]

Londoners pay for the congestion charge/ultra low emission zone that if I remember correctly, Greater Manchester voted against implementing. In addition, Londoners also pay the levy for Crossrail, while business has also stumped up cash. Now the North doesn't get enough, nor does the Midlands, Wales, NI, South West and I'd even argue London itself. I'm rather tired of it being made out as if London - a city with 8.8m residents of global importance and 20% of the UK economy doesn't pull its fair weight. The politicians have failed (most of whom don't even live in London) to invest in the regions while conveniently blaming everyone else - from the unions to Brussels for their own failures to construct a diverse economy.

nope. It fuels the idea up north that London get all the new stuff and the north just gets the crumbs. OK, its a mail story but lots read it.

That's all the Mail does, fuel fire. They see a divide and jump on it, like a fly on the preverbal. Has the Mail mentioned the new Northern & TPX fleets testing and under construction right now? Or ever mentioned the 1972 Bakerloo line fleet will stay in service until the 2030s? Odds on no, but a non story to make people dislike London? They'll do it.

 

[Ken H]

...



That's all the Mail does, fuel fire. They see a divide and jump on it, like a fly on the preverbal. Has the Mail mentioned the new Northern & TPX fleets testing and under construction right now? Or ever mentioned the 1972 Bakerloo line fleet will stay in service until the 2030s? Odds on no, but a non story to make people dislike London? They'll do it.

I am not going to defend the daily mail. I just posted that link because its how many up north will perceive the divide. And lots read the DM. its ABC circulation figure was 1,199,764 for April 2019, second only to the sun (Metro had bigger but its free).
Just because we dont like the messenger, we should not discount its influence on public opinion.

 

[underbank]

Such a shame that John Prescott was in charge of the regions when labour was in power. If it had been a credible/able politician, there could have been vast improvements made, but as it was, because he was well out of his depth and regarded as a joke, the plans for devolved regional parliaments etc came to nothing.

 

[6Gman]

much council spending comes from grants from central government.

Not any more in many areas. Used to be the case, but many local authorities have seen central support reduced to zero.

 

[DarloRich]

I also recognise that this also applies to some other English regions, but it justifies the comments, complaints even, that some of us have been making on various threads over the years (and which some metropolitan types seem to find unreasonable, tedious or not worth bothering about.)

I am not gong to get involved in this discussion (because my views are not welcome on this topic) but I will simply say that this article in no way justifies any of the silly comments made on this type of thread from time to time

Council tax isn't cheaper "up north"

It’s linked to property prices, so it must be?

With respect I disagree. Bromley Boy is correct. I live in a 2 bedroom terraced house in Milton Keynes that is almost identical to my 2 bedroom terraced house I lived in Darlington , If anything my house in Darlo had bigger bedrooms. My house in MK is in a higher band. I pay more council tax in Milton Keynes than I did in Darlington.

 

[radamfi]

Because council tax is based on 1991 house prices, and the bands are the same nationwide, you will get a wider spread of houses in each band in the south. In the north, a high proportion of properties are in Bands A and B. If you assume the same money is required and equal government grant, then it would be logical for a Band A property to pay more in the north than a Band A property in the south, as there are fewer of the higher band properties to spread the cost across. However, someone in Band A house in the north might be in Band A, B, C or D in an equivalent house in the south. So someone in a "low end" Band A house up north might pay less in an equivalent house in the south but in a house closer to Band B might pay more.

 

[6Gman]

Its an interesting point. New labour claimed to represent the North, but then came up with things such as the Northern "No growth" franchise. Too much of an Islington sect perhaps.

New Labour had a PM from a Durham seat; a DPM from a Hull seat; Chancellor from Scotland; Foreign Secretary from Lancashire.

In today's Labour Shadow Cabinet all 4 "great offices of state" are held by London MPs !

Just saying ...

 

[yorksrob]

New Labour had a PM from a Durham seat; a DPM from a Hull seat; Chancellor from Scotland; Foreign Secretary from Lancashire.

In today's Labour Shadow Cabinet all 4 "great offices of state" are held by London MPs !

Just saying ...

And yet they still managed to foist the no growth franchise on us because Tony Blair apparently didn't do trains.

By your actions shall ye be judged.

 

[DarloRich]

By your actions shall ye be judged.

I suspect that most people in "the north" are more worried about sure start or minimum wages or increased child benefit or more police or lower crime or more teachers or moving 500k+ children out of poverty or reduced NHS waiting lists or free nursery places. But yeah, didn't sort out the trains so total failure.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect that most people in "the north" are more worried about sure start or minimum wages or increased child benefit or more police or lower crime or more teachers or moving 500k+ children out of poverty or reduced NHS waiting lists or free nursery places. But yeah, didn't sort out the trains so total failure.

This is a thread about trains. If it wasn't, we could start bringing in all sorts of things, such as various questionable foreign invasions etc or the laughable attempt to privatise directory enquiries, or starting the "let every loony start their own school" scheme. For my two-pennarth, I find New Labour preferable to the Tories and their policy of austerity.

But on the subject in hand (the railway) it has to be said that New Labour were pants, unfortunately.